In this episode, we dive into the world of creative marketing strategies with Mark from UserEvidence. Discover why experimentation is the cornerstone of successful marketing campaigns and how taking risks can lead to extraordinary results.
Highlights:
Understanding the importance of experimentation in marketing.
Why many companies play it safe and how to break that cycle.
Insights into creative risks and the impact of authenticity.
Real-life examples of successful and unsuccessful marketing experiments.
The value of starting podcasts and recording spontaneous conversations.
Observations on changing personas when the camera starts rolling.
A recap of the Spring event in Austin and its unique format.
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Andy Mewborn:
It's all about experimentation, man. And like, okay, what's working? What's not working?
Mark Huber: What are we going to try? A lot of people just play it safe because they don't have the space to take creative risks, or they just don't have crazy ideas that are very experimental and some will land and many will not.
Andy Mewborn: Basically, it feels like you're like Tiger Woods with this thing, dude. It's insane. Look up Lab Golf, the DF3. I just fell in love with this putter using it. Now I'm like, dude, I would love a putter on I'll do promotion for you for free. I don't care. I just love the thing.
Mark Huber: Nine times out of ten, people just want to have her post about shit that she really is not passionate about or hasn't struggled with or experienced before.
Andy Mewborn: You know why I start the, and people who listen to this are going to just die. Cause I say this every time, which is like, I just start podcasts. Like as soon as like, I just start recording because what I know, I've never seen anyone do it.
Mark Huber: And I love it. Yeah.
Andy Mewborn: Because what happens is like, you start talking and juicy stuff starts coming out. Like the, and then you're like, wow, I wish we were recording right now. Right. Like that's the first thing. And then the second thing that I've noticed is like, there's this big authenticity thing going on right now in content, you know, like the people are blowing up with like random YouTube videos on their phone. Like it's crazy. That's so a little more authentic. But three is like, what I've noticed about people is that when you hit record, like their personality just completely changes. Like it's, it's fun. I love this. Yeah.
undefined: Yeah.
Andy Mewborn: Yeah, their personality is just like, yeah, are we ready? You know, are we ready? And they're just like, they just get a little more like, I don't know, closed off or something. So I'm like, you know what, I just want this to feel like we're sitting down having a conversation, having a beer. or I don't actually don't drink, so let's call it an iced tea.
undefined: But yeah, I noticed the same things too, because it's almost like people are, they break into character, they feel like they have to start acting, and it's like, no, just be a real human, like who you are outside of work, just be the same person.
Andy Mewborn: Yeah, exactly. And it's just like, you know, in the end, if people could sniff through that, right? Like I sniffed through and I'm just like, ah, boring, like you sound like a corporate, you know, robot. So we don't want that here.
undefined: Not on Andy's pod.
Andy Mewborn: That's not what happens. We like to have fun, right? Yeah, man. We saw each other at that event. Shoot, what was it called?
Mark Huber: It feels like it was six months ago. It was about a month-ish ago. Spring in Austin.
Andy Mewborn: Yeah. Spring in Austin. That's right. Shout out to Pip, who I called Peep because it's spelled P-E-E-P. And he corrected me real quick. He's like, I'm used to that. I was like, oh shit. I'm not European, dude. I'm sorry. like it's pip you know so shout out to pip for for inviting me to that and uh yeah it was a good event i liked how small it was yeah how intimate it was and I mean, dude, you're a marketing master. What did you think of that event? That's part of what you do, right? And what I want to get out of this pod today too, Mark, actually before we get into it, is I'm actually doing a new structure and you're the guinea pig. So this is going to be great. And we're doing what people actually really love to hear in this pod. I used to just kind of keep it flowing, have a few questions, but we're going to do three go-to-market plays that you live by. right? Three experiments you're currently running, okay? And then three things you tried that just absolutely did not work.
Mark Huber: So, this is hysterical because I'm literally presenting basically what you just said to my two co-founders tomorrow morning at 9 a.m. Central. We can practice. Right in it.
Andy Mewborn: Okay. Dude, amazing. So, this is perfect practice for you. Well, kudos to you because that's what I want to hear from my team, right? It's all about experimentation, man. And like, okay, what's working? What's not working? What are we going to try? Right? Like, and it's just that literally over and over again, is kind of like what I figured is like, that's what go to market today boils down to, if you want to work with speed, fast and ship like crazy, right? Like, try a bunch of shit because it's no longer throw people into a sequence and you know, you win deals. So, yeah. Dude, well, let's start three go-to marketplace, dude, that like are your go-to.
Mark Huber: Well, hold on. You ask me one question that I still got to answer. Spring, I'll give my rundown. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, please, please. Yeah. So, I didn't go last year and last year was the first year that they had the event and I paid attention to You know, pretty much everything that that he does with winter and I thought he did a great job of just getting people to talk about the event after the event so there was some curiosity there for me, and I really didn't know what to expect but I think just knowing Pat like. He likes to do things differently. And I think for me, what stood out the most was that he really did not care about the presentations. That was not the focus of the event. He did a good job at making the presentations very short and very actionable. So I would definitely commend him for that. And I think the biggest like positive of the event was it's all the side conversations and it's the round tables that you know, we were sitting at and some of the ones that I had moderated. And I was a little nervous about, you know, hey, you're forcing people who probably don't know each other and they're strangers to go talk on a topic. Are they actually going to talk? Are they going to sit there in awkward silence? Like, how is this going to play out? I was wildly surprised at how honest and helpful and just raw the roundtables were. Like, people were talking and not acting in character, and they were honest about what worked and what didn't work. And then outside of that, I mean, I loved the venue and the fact that the bar opened at 2 p.m. on, I think, both days, which was pretty funny.
Andy Mewborn: Dude, I saw people getting beers at like 10 a.m., dude. I think it was open all day. I'm like, I'm still getting out of bed and rolling in here. People already have beers. I'm like, this is funny.
Mark Huber: And I think I didn't really appreciate just one parting thought on the event. I didn't really appreciate how well it was executed until I went to another event, I think like two weeks later, that was in a hotel. I'm not going to name the event, but it was in a really dark hotel conference room with no natural light. Uh with just a bunch of forced presentations and really the old way of doing events And I think once I went back to the old way of doing b2b events.
Andy Mewborn: It made me like spring that much more Yeah, you know, I I dude I haven't been to an event before that one in like three years I i've just been in my room. You're white walls working, you know, so like yeah so I um, I went I was like And I had low expectations because I'm like, dude, B2B events are so boring. But that event was killer, man. Yeah. So for people listening, here was like the breakdown. It was like, and you know, it's funny, this is how I run my my cohort of like, I get a bunch of cool founders together. We all get on LinkedIn together. And literally, this is the format I do. And it's I present or someone presents for 30 minutes. And then the next 30 minutes is breakout rooms. And the breakout rooms is where the magic always happens, right? I've been doing this for three years and I'm like, people love it because they meet new people. They kind of get out of their shells, you know, they do that. And so Pip actually did that with this event. I'm like, shit, why didn't I think of that? And that's a great way to do it where it was someone presented and then there was breakout tables where you would have a number on your card. You would then go, um, you know, it was like session three, your, your number five or something like that. So for the third session, you would go to number five table and you'd be at the table there. And there was someone like leading a topic at that specific table. And. It was that that table specific topic was always the same, but the people rolled around. You weren't going to go to table five again if you were already there once, right? Yep. So that was the format for people listening. And did I miss anything?
Mark Huber: Well, so I have no, you nailed it. So I have a slightly different perspective because I was moderating the round tables. So as I was, yeah, as I was, this is kind of funny, but it's, it's a compliment at the end of the day. So when I was prepping for the event, I thought like, oh, it's a round table. I can just, you know, say whatever and it'll be fine. And, and Pep was like, no, like, what are you going to be talking about at the round tables? I want to see this ahead of time. Like, give me some notes and questions. And having to go through it on top of everything else that I was doing at that time, I was like, is this really necessary? Like, why? Like, can't this just go off and can't we just wing it and it'll be fine? And after I went through all the roundtables, and I assume that others prepped just as much as I did, but the roundtables were really good, I think, because people actually prepped the questions and seed questions that they were going to ask and made sure that everyone was getting a chance to chime in. Looking back, I thank Pap for being a kind of a hard ass about like the prep that went into it because it didn't make the conversations, you know, that much stronger and more helpful.
Andy Mewborn: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that is good. What are the, what's that quote about prep? Like, you know, if you prep, some smart philosopher has a weird quote on this.
Mark Huber: Yeah.
Andy Mewborn: Smarter than me.
undefined: Yeah. Smarter than me. Yeah.
Andy Mewborn: It's like preparation is, is the best, right? Like that's my version of it. So, yeah, I'm not going to lie. I think I know the quote, but it's something like you should prepare and like, yeah. That's smart that Pep did that. And I'm glad he pushed people to do that, because it was really well done, dude. And for me, what was useful, I was just going around to the round tables, is literally what I want to ask you, right? Which is like, what are people's go-to plays I'm not thinking about? What are experiments they're running? And what have they tried that doesn't work so I don't waste my time? Not that, you know, what works, what doesn't work for one company isn't always what may not work for another, but like, you know, context always. So, yeah, man, I think the first thing, let's get into it. Like, yeah. Your three go-to market plays, I think I have an idea of one of the first ones, but what are your three go-tos? You came into User Evidence, which by the way, everyone, we never even said, Mark is the VP of Marketing at User Evidence, a great company. There's a couple of things I saw you do because I've been watching closely when you first came in. I would love to hear there you're what they're like six months now or something.
Mark Huber: So I actually just looked the other day and it's better that I feel like this now because sometimes you maybe don't join the right company or role and you're like oh man it's only been like this amount of time that I've been here like it feels way longer and like the worst way. I've been here about 10 months. It feels way longer in the best way possible. It's kind of surprising how long I have been here.
undefined: Oh wow.
Mark Huber: It feels like I it feels like six months in my head but then I looked at the the calendar the other day I was like whoa it's almost coming up on a full year. So, three go-to-market plays. I'm actually going to use one that we're executing right now, specific to spring, and it was the first time that I had tried it out. And I'm going to be doing it again at Dave Gerhart's Exit 5 event in the fall, DRIVE, in September. So, like we were just talking about, I'm not the biggest fan of having a presence at an event and paying money to sponsor. And I will never have a trade show booth under oath. You can quote me on that. I told that to Kevin and Ray, the two co-founders. So like the shelf life for events is just, it's so short. Like the event is, you know, maybe one day, maybe two or three days and you're there and it's a whirlwind while you're there. And then as soon as the event's over, you you know, throw everyone you talk to in some messy Google sheet. Maybe you have a scanner or tool to make it easier to get in your marketing automation platform. You blast everybody with follow-ups and then a week after it's like, on to the next one. And the events is just, it's done. So what I did at Spring, I had this idea was I had found EventShark, so a local Austin video agency. I had evaluated a couple other video agencies. They just work with B2B startups and were a little bit scrappier. And what I did was, I used it as a play to create about eight months worth of content from this event. And you saw me grinding out there. Yeah. Yeah. I saw you grinding. I coordinated about, I think it was like 14 or 15 different interviews with people who either were speaking at the event and someone that I respect or someone who I had wanted to have a conversation with that was relevant to, you know, B2B marketing, product marketing, customer marketing, the product that are really the problem that our product solves for. And I scheduled 20 minute interviews with all of these people ahead of time and cranked out all of those interviews over the course of two days. And then what we're able to do then is create long form interviews that are going on YouTube. We're releasing them every two weeks. And then also cutting up each of those clips into, you know, probably four or five clips for social and just extending the shelf life of the event with content big time. So that was something that was really an experiment that I'd never done before and had always wanted to do. So I think it's a go to market play or a experiment that is now turning into a go to market play for us. And I'll be using that later this year a second time. applying learnings that I basically got from the spring event.
Andy Mewborn: And the thing there is you're sponsoring these events where you're doing that too, right? So you're sponsoring them, so you have your own specific, that's part of the deal you're making with companies, which is like, hey, we're sponsoring, we want this one section, we're going to do interviews, and I'm sure you're giving them some content afterwards too and all that fun stuff. Interesting. I like that because yeah, the half life is very small of those events. You're right. And then the people you have there, like specifically spring, there was a lot of smart people there. Right. So I think every event, there's a lot of smart people. So why not capture their ideas, thoughts, everyone's already there. So it's like, Hey, Yeah. I'll take an interview. Why not? It makes people feel good. And then you can be like, Hey, we'll send you this content. You have content for yourself.
Mark Huber: Right. And then I'm going to give away a little bit of the secret sauce because it was sincere. I was not trying to bamboozle them, but there were a couple of people that I talked to that were on our target account list and they were the right person that we should be talking to. Yeah, exactly. I did not. pitch user evidence to them in the interviews. If they listen to this, and maybe they will, and they listen back to the interview, they will see that some of the questions that I asked them have an indirect tie to what we do about user evidence, but it wasn't outright talking about user evidence. And of those people, I don't want to say it was 100% hit rate, but it was definitely north of 60% or 70%. By the end of it, they said, oh, that sounds pretty interesting. We should talk. And then it's like, all right, well, I led the content and now it's turned into a relationship.
Andy Mewborn: Yeah. What do, why do you think I do this podcast?
Mark Huber: Yeah, that's literally it.
Andy Mewborn: Right. Yeah. That's literally like, dude, we did this play at outreach. We've done, I've done this play with every company. It's like. You get content that you can keep putting out, and sometimes really good stuff. You build relationships, and then with those relationships comes deals. I'm not pitching anyone right now, like, hey, dude, check out Distribute. I might ask you in a couple of weeks, but we're talking to Ray and stuff. Whatever, whatever. But yeah, exactly, that's the point. And so people are like, I put it on YouTube and like, you know, I get a thousand, 2000 views, whatever, but compared to LinkedIn, that's what I'm getting. It's nothing. But I'm like, for me, the value is not in getting a shit ton of views on YouTube. The value for me is meeting the people that, that come on to the show. Right. And so I think every business is, you know, everyone says every company should be a media company. Well, to start that process, every company should just launch a podcast. Um, if anything, you're, you know, founder led creator founder, you know, that's a big thing right now. Like get them hosting it. Right. And like they have the credibility, they have the authority, they have all that. You're talking to the founder, right? Yep. That's what, that's literally if companies aren't doing that right now, like they're leaving money on the table.
undefined: Right.
Andy Mewborn: That's what I would say.
Mark Huber: So, absolutely. So second go to market play. So this is another one that I had thought about trying to do in some way at my last company, but I just didn't really have the autonomy or approval to do this. So I wanted to figure out a way to partner with creators, influencers, but really advisors at the end of the day. And I knew that I wanted to do something there, but I didn't really know what I wanted it to look like. So I thought back to my experience being an advisor at a couple of different companies. And some of them were basically just, hey, throw the advisor position on your LinkedIn profile and post about us. And it's really them just wanting to tap into the existing audience that you have. So I didn't really find it being very, I don't know, fulfilling on my side of the house. And then I've been an advisor at Nevadic and I think that's been the best experience that I've had so far. And I took some of what I liked from that advisor program and then also put my own spin on it. So what I did was I found the three people who I thought were the most relevant personas that we needed to really get a better understanding of. So Jason Oakley, he's one of the better product marketers that I've ever met in B2B. Kaylee Edmondson, when I think of her, she and I go back a couple years just as like peer mentors. She is one of the best minds in demand gen. And then Speaking of demand gen, this is totally unplanned. Jen Allen Knuth, who founded Demand Gen, her little company, comes from a sales background. So they were three of our core personas that we're really trying to break into. So I wanted to treat them truly as advisors. So it's not Hey, go post about user evidence. I literally do not ask them to do that ever. I have monthly advisor calls with them where we have structured kind of workshops of, you know, hey, we're trying to figure out what messaging is going to work with, you know, this particular persona or, hey, here's a problem that we have internally that is totally in line with what you are good at. How would you think about this? What are the types of questions that you would ask? How would you work through this with me? And I hate to say this, advise. If you're going to hire an advisor, let them advise. Use their expertise. Now, we gave them some equity in exchange for their time. And we've featured them in content, both in the Proofpoint, my show, in written content like we want it to be a two-way beneficial street not just hey go post for user evidence and then the other two things that I really played up when I was trying to recruit them to be advisors with this one the best part of these programs that I found by way of nevadic was when you get to meet other people who you don't already have existing relationships with And I want you to go talk to other advisors without talking to me. Like this isn't just, you know, a user evidence thing. Go build relationships, you know, with Jason and Kaylee and Jen and go, I will go introduce you to other people that I know. Like I want to kind of build your network too. So that was one thing that I played up and I've gotten feedback on that I've truly followed through on, which is great. And then the final thing was complete transparency into everything that's going on in marketing land at User Evidence. So every month I send a recap out with, you know, what's going on at the company level, what's going on at the marketing team level, and I include the good, the bad, and the ugly, and I put my commentary on it, and I give them complete transparency into everything that's going on. And I think for three of them, they're all kind of solopreneurs right now. They've all said that they miss feeling a part of being on a team, and they love these updates. They know everything is not sunshine and rainbows. They like to see what's going on and how they can help. And the Slack threads in these monthly updates are crazy active and it's just fun. So I've gotten great feedback on it right now. And I know that they really enjoy it as well.
Andy Mewborn: Nice. And then you don't have like a quota for how many times you have to post a month, right? It's just like, Hey, you're an advisor. You have shares like our success is your success. So like when you, yeah. Like if you feel like you need to like, Hey, you own like a piece of this. Right. So that's awesome.
undefined: Absolutely. Yeah.
Andy Mewborn: And that feels more authentic, a little more authentic than having to do it, right? Like, because I've been thinking through this too. And it's like, there's a couple of models that people are using, right? There's your model, give them some equity, but it's more like, you know, I've been in one of these advisors before, right? Give them some equity and then, you know, talk to them every once in a while if you need something. And that's pretty much it, right? It was kind of like, whatever. And then there's, And then there's the one model that I think RepView does, right? Like RepView does this, and I think a lot of people follow suit on this, where it's like you get a monthly, like they say, hey, we're going to do a three month deal with you. We're going to pay you a thousand bucks a month. And I think it's way less than that for some people. a thousand bucks a month and you will post once per month for us. And then they'll tell you what to post, not what to post, but when to post, I'm sorry. And then, you know, say, Hey, they'll hit you up like a week before time. Hey, can you post on this day? And then they get a group of like five influencers to do that. Right. And then on specific days, they do that. Which is interesting, right? Like I'm sure it works for them because they keep doing it, right? Like it works, but that's depending on their product and it has to do with hiring and with LinkedIn, hiring is like super, you know, that's a really good topic. The thing that the, so those are the positives. The negatives of that is that like, you can kind of see that like these people aren't actually huge super fans of the product or, or super users. Right. And like, so it kind of, it dilutes it a lot. Right. Versus that's like a fricking super fan of something. Right. I'll give you an example. Right now I'm in Mexico and my wife and I and my son go between Mexico and Austin. And I met this guy that started a putter, like he makes golf putters. Like there's a couple people on the tour use them and stuff. And I'm not like a huge golfer. Like I like to do it. What's the name of the company? It's called Lab Golf. Lab Golf. All right. And this putter is insane, dude. It's, they're not cheap. They're like 500 bucks, but yeah.
Mark Huber: Too nice for me. Yeah, exactly.
Andy Mewborn: Like I'm talking about him right now, but dude, this putter, Basically, it feels like you're like Tiger Woods with this thing, dude. It's insane. Look up Lab Golf, the DF3. And just check it out. And I just fell in love with this putter using it, because one of my golf coaches, he was like, try it out. And then met this guy, or email chat here. And now I'm like, dude, I would love a putter. I'll do promotion for you for free. I don't care. I just love the thing. And so there's that kind of excitement around it. you know, if you were to get people like that to promote your product, they're actual like, like users and love what you do. And so I've kind of changed my mindset on that. Cause I was big on like, Oh, just get the influencers. But I'm like, if they're not actually loving my product, then I don't know. I think it's a longterm, not, not advantageous.
Mark Huber: Right. Yeah. So let's talk about that a little bit, because I think one of the things that I really had to sell each of them on was, the problem that we solve for and whether or not that's a problem that they've experienced firsthand themselves and something that they've struggled with and something that they believe in. And I know and I heard this from Jen from when she's told me she said it on other podcasts that she gets hit up all the time. And nine times out of 10, people just want to have her post about shit that she really is not passionate about or hasn't struggled with or experienced before. So she really wanted to believe in the problem that we solve for, or else she wouldn't do it. And it's cool, because then you have people who truly feel a part of something, they're bought into it, and not just you kind of pimping them out for their LinkedIn followers.
Andy Mewborn: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And that is… Man, there's such a big difference in like the way content is put out just with that mindset shift, right? Of like, hey, I'm doing this because I know the problem they're solving. I've had the problem and you actually hit the nail on the head. It's they've had the problem and there's now a solution. I am a shitty golfer, so I need everything I can to do a little bit better, which is a better putter, right? So like, I'm like, it's solving. That makes two of us too. Yeah, exactly. So like, dude, Yes. I'm going to love it even more. Right. And it's, it solves my problem of being a shitty golfer. So, um, actually now that we're talking events, I'd love to put a golf tournament together. Um, it might be a little too bro. He, cause mostly dudes golf, but like, yeah, we'll see. Um, anyway, it's just the idea that came to my mind.
Mark Huber: Uh, all right. Well now I have an idea I gotta be a little cryptic about how much I'm sharing about this because it is going to be a surprise in the phone Okay, there is an event that is It was just announced today And I had it we're sponsoring it. So whoever's listening they can probably piece together who i'm talking about but I pitched the founder of the company who's a pretty massive name in b2b marketing a crazy content idea, and I ran it past Devin Reed. I asked Devin last Thursday, and I pitched this person Friday morning, and Devin was like, dude, that's brilliant, you should do this. I'm bringing a video crew with me as we play nine holes on the golf course, and they're gonna shoot us talking about first time VPs of marketing, hits, misses, and learnings along the way as we're playing. Yes, dude.
Andy Mewborn: I thought that is my shit because dude I'm launching I haven't even I've got two episodes that I haven't released yet actually but I'm launching a cooking show that literally is going in yeah I'm doing a cooking show and so right now it's just me cooking but then Cause I'm in Mexico right now, but when we get to Austin, we're going to bring in B2B, like GTM leaders and we're going to cook Mexican food. Cause our whole theme is Mexican day of the dead.
undefined: Yeah, dude. Yeah.
Andy Mewborn: So we're going to do, we're just like once a week, I'm filming an episode. We're going to make some salsa. So we're going to make some. some, you know, all the generic guacamole we're going to make. What else are we doing? We made conchas, like the Mexican sweet bread last week. But yeah, we're going to do that, make some stuff. And then eventually, yeah, we're going to bring in go-to-market people, but I also want to bring in like actual chefs. So like, yeah, maybe talking to, a big rapper name right now that also cooks that a lot of people know who this person is to to do something with me so we'll see uh yeah that's gonna be like the thing um like i'm i'm i'm an okay cook i just learned from my mom who's like the best cook ever so it's really her like cooking through me because i just like learn everything yeah um But yeah, dude, something like that, right, is gonna be awesome. And then what we're also doing is, we should do something together, because we're on the same page. Oh, I have an idea. I'm gonna let you finish.
Mark Huber: Okay, okay. Here, but I already have an idea. It's related to stuff that we talked about, so keep going. Dude, I love, dude, let's keep throwing these ideas.
Andy Mewborn: The other thing that I want to do, well, actually next Tuesday in Austin, I'm hosting a fun run. And so we invited basically a lot of people. We've got like 60 people coming to a fun run that we're gonna do in Austin. And we might be including a mariachi band in this run along with a few donkeys. So it's going to be some fun stuff, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because obviously donkeys are a mascot.
undefined: So, yeah. Yeah, I love that.
Mark Huber: But I think it speaks to just, you know, there's so much content in B2B right now. A lot of people just play it safe because they don't have the space to take creative risks. Or they just don't have crazy ideas that are very experimental and some will land and many will not. But I think the mere fact that you were thinking differently about content is already putting you a couple steps ahead of everybody else because different is better than trying to be better.
Andy Mewborn: That's, that's exactly, dude, you hit the nail on the head. Differing is better than trying to be better. There's a philosophy quote from earlier, right? Like, there we go.
undefined: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Andy Mewborn: It's true, man. It's like, so I have a rule and with when it comes to content and marketing and all this stuff, and people are like, you're, you're like a great marketer. How do you do? And I'm like, I've never even considered myself a marketer. I just live by one rule and I'm like, if other people are doing it, don't do it. Because if other people are doing it, that means they got it from someone and they got it from someone. Now look, are there going to be flavors of stuff that other people maybe have done? Yeah, sure. Of course, like fun runs. I'm not the first person to do a fun run, but maybe I'm the first person to do one. with, you know, in the B2B setting with like some mariachi bands and throw some, my flavor in there. Right. That's like different and something that I know no other company would do. Right. Like, um, yeah. And going back to this, this is where you kind of have to have a crazy founder, which I'm the founder and I'm crazy. So, you know, like to buy into that stuff. Right. And so, and you know, someone that's not so worried about every, don't get me wrong. I'm worried about pennies and how we spend them. Yep. But when it comes to marketing, like there's just, you can't put a price on like attention, right? Like it's, it's hard. And you kind of have to take those swings, right? It's like, it's all, it's always an experiment really in that sense. So yeah, man, I think that's lucky you have founders that are kind of like giving you that autonomy.
Mark Huber: Well, whatever you said to Ray at Spring straight up has helped me. I'm not even kidding. Big time because it opened Ray's eyes up to wanting to experiment more with marketing and try things that are unproven and different and whatnot. So I owe you a lab.
Andy Mewborn: Yeah, let's go. Yes. Well, there you go, man. Yeah. Cause I was telling Ray about the cooking show actually, and the cooking show and like all that fun stuff. So I'm like, dude, you guys need to do something like this. Cause no one wants another, like, I know we're on a podcast. We try and make it flavorful, but no one just wants a podcast. Right. You want to know, like you need, like, Do some fun shit, man. That's just it. So yeah, man.
undefined: Okay.
Andy Mewborn: Third go-to-market thing. I think we did two.
Mark Huber: What's your third one that you were thinking? Yeah, we did two. So I'm going to answer the third one in a second. And they're all really content-oriented for me because user evidence has struggled with awareness outside of the customer marketing space because customer marketing is so, so small. So I think a lot of the plays right now are really aimed at getting us outside of that bubble, which is why it's so content heavy. So I'm going to pitch you the idea that I have of you and I the next time I'm in Austin. And maybe we have lab golf sponsor this, but we should use lab putters and go mini golfing together and record it in person and have a video crew.
Andy Mewborn: Dude, let's, I'll hit him up now. I'm going to hit up the CEO.
undefined: Yeah.
Andy Mewborn: And we'll do all a collab thing. Let's freaking do it. Yeah. He'll be down. He'll be down. Yeah.
Mark Huber: Yeah. Love it. So the third thing is the proof point and the show that I launched earlier this year, it was something that I knew that I wanted to do, I wanted to have some sort of show, not just because everyone in B2B needs to be doing a show, but it was easy for me to repurpose that content in my early days at Metadata in so many different ways and just have more output than you truly do at the end of the day and kind of punch above your weight class. Now I had a podcast, Demand Gen U at Metadata. I think we made it to like 60 something episodes. It was a huge success. We had no idea what we were doing. So what I wanted to do was figure out, okay, let's do this again, but let's not just take what worked at Metadata and do the same exact thing here. So what I did was I pitched it to Evan and Ray, and I modeled it after two different shows, one that I love, and then another that I I like the creative production behind it. I don't watch it nearly as religiously as the first one, but the first one was New Heights with the Kelsey brothers. I think they're hilarious. Oh, I love that. Yeah, I see the cliff. So funny. Yeah. Yeah. It's like genuinely entertaining. And the second one was LeBron's, what is it, the shot from I think Interrupted or Uninterrupted, his media arm, where they have people from very different backgrounds and have different perspectives come in and talk in person in a barbershop about topics. And they get real, they're laughing, it's honest, it's insightful, they're pulling from personal stories, they're not acting, they're just themselves. So what I wanted to do was combine both of those concepts into what is now the proof point at user evidence. So every episode we have three people who come from different backgrounds and have different perspectives and we go deep on a single topic and we have them talking with each other, commenting on each other's comments, asking each other's questions. I'm kind of in the background, like steering the conversation. I'm not the focus of it. The focus is them and just letting it be real and raw and authentic. And it's been awesome because I've invited people from the core personas that we're trying to break into. I've had sales leaders, CS leaders, huge product marketing names, big demand gen names, you name it. And we're all talking about things that relate back to our like core personas and the problems that they struggle with. And it's been amazing. We're right at the point where we know it's working and we got to really double down on it now. So it's exciting. It's a lot of work, but the craziest part is having to coordinate schedules by getting three very busy people on the books for the same date and time that works with three very few. Yeah.
Andy Mewborn: And are they going to, so I figured, are they going to be getting haircuts?
Mark Huber: So, I wish we could do it in person. Oh, yeah. That's another content idea. There's a content idea.
Andy Mewborn: I was like, dude, that's amazing for an event where you have a barber there.
undefined: That would be hilarious.
Andy Mewborn: And you're asking, someone's asking them questions and they're getting there. Because that does well.
undefined: I see that on Instagram everywhere. Yeah. Yeah.
Andy Mewborn: All right.
Mark Huber: Yeah, there's another. It's virtual right now. I think what I would love to do at some point is try to record in person together, kind of like what Devin's doing with his Read Between the Lines show that I love. I don't know if you've seen that. Yeah. Yeah. It's awesome, man. Yeah. Shout out to Devin.
Andy Mewborn: He gave me the idea for the cooking show, actually. So shout out to Devin.
undefined: Yeah, he did.
Andy Mewborn: Devin gave me the idea because I was like, I need to do something with Mexican flavor. And he's like, bro, you should do a cooking show with Mexican food. And he was kind of joking. And then we were like, whoa no no actually i was like dude that's a great idea yeah and i was and then the next week i was i recorded episode one you know yeah let's go um sorry i cut you out there dude but yeah so read between the lines yeah all good yeah so it's uh it's virtual now i'd love to you know be able to shoot a couple episodes in like a two-day stretch with a few people maybe around an event or something just to
Mark Huber: kind of capture the magic that is shooting video content in person because you really cannot replicate it. But it's been great. My CEO, uh, Evan is loving it. Ray is loving it. They listened to all of the episodes, uh, which is awesome, but also stressful. Cause if I say anything in the podcast and I'm like, Oh, I got to do that. Then Ray will follow up and he's done this before. Like, Hey, did you actually do that? Uh, no, I forgot to. So.
Andy Mewborn: Of course, of course. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Oh, that's awesome. Dude, that's so amazing. Ray thinks you're killing it, man. So just FYI. We're always like, dude, marks the machine with output, dude.
undefined: Yeah, dude. Okay.
Andy Mewborn: So now, Let's talk about three things you've tried that didn't work yet.
undefined: Oh no, actually before we go there, I wanna talk about something that you didn't even mention that I noticed you did, right?
Andy Mewborn: Which is you came in and you rebranded the whole company in like a month, dude.
undefined: There's a funny story behind this.
Mark Huber: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, I wanna hear this, I wanna hear this. So right around this time last year, I was interviewing with User Evidence. I accepted the role in June and I started in early July. So I was giving my final presentation about a week and a half from now, a year ago. And in the final presentation, it was, assume you get the gig, what are you going to do in your first, you know, 3, 6, 12 months? And I really wanted the job, like more than anything, the job description was written perfectly for me, right fit, right people, right everything, like I'm super happy to be here. So I prepped more than I ever had before for any interview. And when I put the final presentation in front of them, it was about, I don't know, maybe like 10 slides. But the first slide before I got into the actual prompt was, here are three things that we are not going to do in my first year. And it was redo the website, spend money on a rebrand or spend money on paid ads. And the reason being was there was so much other work that I thought that we needed to do to really understand what is gonna go on the website when you redo it. In the current state of the economy, you need to have really strong product marketing and positioning and messaging and understand what needs to be said if you're gonna be spending money on paid ads. And then a rebrand, it's just like, that's what every new marketing leader does. And then many of them get let go a year later when they're not showing results. I pitched that and Evan goes, Mark, I couldn't agree more. It's great that you've led with this, but we just closed our series A and we needed to announce it by the end of the summer. So we have to completely redo the website and you have to do it in less than 45 calendars. Yeah. Oh my God. So I gave them a couple of, I guess, demands and I said, Hey, if I'm going to do this, I need to work with my go-to creative agency. Algert are the best. We've still been working with them. I was their first customer. I've worked with them for about four years now. And I need a couple other resources to make this work. So like, all right, we'll do it. So it was a horrible way from a work-life balance perspective to start your new gig for the first, you know, however many days that it took me. I actually know the exact, it took me 28 calendar days, which was insane. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. Crazy. What I learned, what I learned was, Looking back, it was unbelievable for me to just get a huge noticeable win under my belt right out of the gate and show them that, hey, I'm not just going to talk the talk here. I can actually do the work too. And I think Once I knocked that out for them, then it made them realize like, all right, we can trust this guy. We hired the right guy. Let's give him a little bit more breathing room. Let's let him do his thing. It's not to say that they're not asking me hard questions and pushing me as they should, but that was a big kind of trial for me to really earn the right to say, hey Evan or hey Ray, great idea, just not something that we should do right now. Let's do it a couple months later. And I don't think that I would have those legs to stand on unless I nailed, you know, that big website redesign that included new positioning, new messaging, all the website copy, all the pages on the site, new branding, you name it. It was a wild.
Andy Mewborn: Dude, that's honestly, man, you crushed that. It was like, it felt like overnight you did it. Honestly, it was like, which it pretty much was overnight.
undefined: Yeah.
Andy Mewborn: And honestly, and the brand is also sick. Like you did a good job on brand. It's memorable. And that's how I know it. And when I say sick, I mean memorable because you know, I've gotten feedback before and look, you need to have different gears, right? As a person, I truly believe everyone has different gears and my default gear is happy, fun, let's have a good time. And then I have an intense founder gear, right? And yeah, see, right?
undefined: Let's do it.
Andy Mewborn: And so I think with this, for me, you know, the brand part of it. Some people are like, well, it's not professional. And I go back to this and I say, well, is it better to be professional or is it better to be memorable? And I always go back to, it's better to be memorable. And that's the gear you need to be in with your branding. Right. And like for me, that's why ours is crazy as hell. Right. It's like, it's like next to the day of the dead. Like, you know, we got this shit.
Mark Huber: I actually do love it. And I love hearing you talk about it now because I totally agree with that. Yeah.
Andy Mewborn: It's, it's, it's all about being memorable, man. And like, and, Anytime we want to create something or drop something new, when it revolves around that, we're still very early, by the way. We're not even Series A, right? But it's like, is this going to be memorable? We just launched a campaign yesterday, Taco Template Tuesday, right? And people are DMing me, like, taco, taco, taco. They remember it now, right? And that's like, oh, shit, this is cool. It's different. You know, it's kind of out there, whatever. But, you know, I think you did a good job just going full circle here of being memorable because I just, I think the guy with like the user evidence mustache and I'm like, that's user evidence, you know, like I know user evidence. So great job on that, man. I'm actually getting, right after this call at 10, I'm speaking to Udi from Gong. specifically about branding. So we're doing a LinkedIn live together.
Mark Huber: So I can't wait to, I'm going to probably watch that as I'm working on my presentation.
Andy Mewborn: Yeah, there you go, dude. Like he might, so I'm going to get into it with him too. Like, Hey, what are the plays early on for people to like create a great brand? Cause you did that with, with Gong. And that's like my top question, you know? So yeah, man, I think you did a really good job at that. And I also think, one of the last true moats in SaaS today is brand, right? Like I think, I mean, I always bring up this example, the people listening are going to laugh as well, because I always go back to this, but like, if you look at Liquid Death, right? Like they're selling freaking water, dude. And- Yeah. literally the world's number one commodity, right? And they're building a company off of it. So if you think you're too saturated, you're probably in a saturated market, but guess what? There's still a way to win. And it's typically with brand and media distribution, right? And so, yeah, man, I think you see that as well, if I'm not mistaken.
Mark Huber: Absolutely. Yeah. No, yeah.
Andy Mewborn: Yeah. So dude, Mark, it's been great chatting with you, my friend. Let's see, where can people find you? LinkedIn, I'm guessing is the best place to find Mark here.
Mark Huber: Yeah, LinkedIn. And then Where else can they find me? Usually at B2B SaaS events, come say hey, and then make sure to listen to the proof point. And then just recently we launched, and this is a kind of a new experiment, but I think it's going to turn into a play. I launched a newsletter. We just sent out the third edition yesterday. And what does the B2B SaaS world need? Another newsletter? No, the hook for the newsletter is I'm sharing you know wins but I'm also sharing misses and just being very vulnerable and honest around what I've missed on and why and what I've learned from that and I can tell you in three cents we're sending it every other week the feedback has been amazing because people realize that it's not all perfect. So if you give off the illusion that it's perfect, like they see right through that. They just want people who are real and honest and genuine about what's actually happening. Yeah.
Andy Mewborn: Yeah. Well, dude, that's why the format of this pod is like things that work, things that don't work. And what do you like? What do you always go back to? Right? Like, what's your secret sauce, I guess you can say. So, because that's the stuff that I care about. Honestly, like I'm generally interested in like, okay, ooh, like you said a couple of things where I'm like, We came out with content ideas, right? Like, dude, I'm like, I think we had some big ones, right? And then like, we're going to, and then lastly, to finish this up, dude, well, Mark, I'll be in touch brother. Thank you so much for hopping on. I'll have probably this out. This was a blast. Thank you for having me on.
undefined: Yes, dude. Thank you, man.
Andy Mewborn: And we're going to do some content stuff together. Like I got so much out of this too, dude. So, um, learned a lot from you, man. So thank you. We'll chat with you soon. I'll probably email you right now. We'll can, you know, we'll muster something up. So.
Mark Huber: Later brother. Thanks for having me on Andy.
Andy Mewborn: Thanks man.
undefined: Later. Peace.
