Check out this interview with a top performance coach known for training elite athletes and business leaders. We'll dig into breath repatterning techniques, figuring out which ones are truly effective and which ones are just buzz. Learn why WHM Hof breathing isn't right for everyone and how the correct breathing practices can seriously improve your recovery and stress management.
Join us for some solid, actionable tips on using breathing to better your physical and mental health. Whether you're an athlete, a startup founder, or just keen on improving your wellbeing, this discussion is filled with advice that might just shift how you think about recovery and enhancing performance. Tune in and start revamping your daily habits with proven breathwork techniques.
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Andy Mewborn:
So for you specifically, like, what are those main things that you're helping the best athletes in the world do?
Jonny Miller:
Yeah, so I've worked more with, I'd say, startup founders and leaders and some athletes as well. But the technique is called facilitated breath-free paddling. What's underrated and what's overrated? One that I would place in the very much overrated is Wim Hof breathing.
Andy Mewborn:
Like I've been training harder recently and I don't know if this is good or bad, but my resting heart rate has been like dropped significantly when I've tried to start getting really back into training.
Jonny Miller:
Has your HIV increased? Because ideally you want a low resting heart rate, but a high HIV score.
Andy Mewborn:
That's what I have. Yeah. Man, you, I know you've gone through so much, like just following you online, you know, um, and you know, in the past few years, which is crazy. Um, And yeah, dude, and now you're doing, I think I caught on to you on Twitter. We kind of matched back up and you were running a cohort on like nervous system mastery. Right. And dude, what I wanted to talk to you about today is what the hell is it, man? Explain it to me like I'm five. Cause I know. I know it's like breathing techniques and all that, you know, like, like, you know, as far as I can go, you know, I trained for iron man. So I do iron man's and like do all that. And like the one thing I do, like all is like, I'd like, I call it moving meditation, which is like, I focus on my breath for hours and I kind of go into like this Zen like space, you know, is what I would call. I just forget that my legs are moving, uh, is basically it. You know, but yeah, man, I want to talk to you about that today because, you know, I do think you're going to be like the next Hooverman with this stuff, man. So we'd love to kind of just learn about this. And what made you get into it, really? Because you went from doing startup stuff right into this like nervous system mastery. And I kind of want to get into like the why there.
Jonny Miller:
Yeah, well, where to begin. So I like the thread of you doing Ironman because I think there's some interesting metaphors there in that when you're training for something like, you know, crazy endurance event like an Ironman where you're running a marathon, like cycling, I don't even know how far.
Andy Mewborn:
I know it's a long way. You swim two and a half miles and then you do 120 mile bike ride and then you do a marathon.
Jonny Miller:
So that's a great comparison in the sense of when you're training for something like that, the recovery aspect is almost as important as the training itself and getting the recovery right is actually when your capacity is going to be increasing. And so if we apply this to the nervous system, which is also neuroplastic, it's also very much like a muscle. There are things we can do to both build our capacity, but also increase our ability to downshift after stress. which is typically something that a lot of high performers, founders, people who are kind of like knowledge workers, they're great at getting into that activated state where they're like, go, go, go. But when it comes to relaxing and downshifting, their parasympathetic capacity is often diminished. And so whether it's through practices like breathwork, non-sleep, deep rest, one aspect of nervous system mastery which I see as being missing from the mainstream conversation is being able to effectively downshift without relying on like alcohol or weed or like external things because that's often what people do. They have crutches because they're not able to fall asleep or rest at the end of a busy day without some kind of external substance. And so part of what I train is this capacity to like actively rest or as Kevin Kelly says, cultivate a good rest ethic. If you have a good work ethic, you need an equally good rest ethic. Because that's when the recovery kind of happens and it allows you to do the same thing the next day and do it in a sustainable way. Wow.
Andy Mewborn:
And that's, yeah, it's so fun. I just wrote a LinkedIn post about this, which is like, its schedule hasn't come out yet, but it was basically like, that quote, it reminds me of that quote, which is like, you have to slow down to speed up, you know, or like slow as smooth, smooth as fast, you know? And I, I actually have this problem, um, because I'm always like, I'm a founder, you know, entrepreneur or whatever. And I'm always like, go, go, go. Even when I'm training, I don't, you know, if I feel good that day, like on Saturday, I ran like 10 miles, you know, as part of a training thing. And I was done, you know, we did some stuff with my son and my wife. My son was napping and I was like, dude, I can go run another 10 miles. Like I'm going to do it. And then, and then I was like, wait, just because you can, maybe it doesn't mean you should. Um, cause your body like, you know, What's crazy is your body, like mathematically, if you want to run a marathon in a certain time, if you do certain things consistently, you can make it happen, right? It's the discipline that's the hard part and the recovery. So, not only the discipline to do it, but the discipline to slow down, as you mentioned, when you need to, which is that hard part. So, like, I'll tell you what my probably really bad habit is to recover. which is like watching Netflix. Like that's how I shut my brain off at night. I'll just be like, all right, I'm done at six, you know, put my son to sleep. I'll put on like a Netflix show and I'll just, it'll, it'll help me stop thinking about like what I need to do, how I need to do it. You know, you know how that whole train goes. You've probably been there before. Um, and for me, that's what happens, you know? And like, I'm like, shit, I kind of feel guilty cause I could be reading a book, you know, or something like doing something way better. But like, I'm like, I'm going to watch this stupid show on Netflix, you know? Uh, so man, like now I love to get into techniques, Johnny. Like what are, what are, cause I want to try some of this stuff, man. I'm very practical. And so when I hear things, I want to like try this and like, what is some of this nervous system mastery and like, what can you expect from it?
Jonny Miller:
Sure. So before I go into the, in the techniques and the protocols, I think a little bit more context, which is helpful, which is this concept of, I call it emotional debt. And it's basically, um, from a scientific point of view, there is something called allostatic load, which when we, when cortisol goes through the body, when we get stressed, when we get activated, if that kind of mobilization reflex isn't completed, i.e. we don't like go into a state of relaxation afterwards, this Allostatic load or emotional debt builds up in the body. And that is basically, it's like the leading cause of a ton of different like health challenges. It causes fragility in the nervous system. So we become more reactive. We'll like snap at our partners. will struggle to fall asleep in the evening. That's basically what causes like over time, if that builds up enough, that causes burnout. That's basically from a kind of technical perspective, increased allostatic load equals burnout over a long period of time. So a big part of what I focus is both how do you avoid accumulating that debt in the first place and what are practices for like paying off that emotional debt basically. Yeah. And the other piece that I said, another technical term, apologies for throwing a lot of.
Andy Mewborn:
Oh, no, please. Like I said, like throw it. I'm learning. I love this stuff.
Jonny Miller:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's another term called interoception, which is basically. excuse me, how able are we to sense, track and feel the sensations of our inner landscape like internally? Like can you sense how hungry you are? Can you sense like tension in your chest? Can you sense like all of these different things? And typically people who people who have ADHD or people who are prone to burnout have very low interoception levels. So what's really key about it is if you're in tune with your body, like if you're, let's, let's say, um, you know, the example of like running 10 miles on the weekends, a good example, like if you're, if you were in tune and you, you felt any like, Oh no, actually my body's tired right now. Like I need to recover. Like running 10 miles would be a terrible idea. Yeah, that's really, really helpful. But some, you know, founders, high achievers, they've gotten to where they are, because of their capacity to override their physical sensations, which works in the short term, in the same way that if you're building a startup, and you, you know, you accumulate technical debt in the beginning, right? Because you're building fast, the code scrappy, you don't really care if it like breaks down the line, because you can fix it. But so in the short term, it's great. But you do that over and over again, and you miss the body's signals and cues that like, oh, hey, actually, you need to take a break. And maybe an early warning sign is like waking up and feeling exhausted in the morning and like, even though you slept, or it's like you snap at your partner for no particular reason, or you respond in a disproportionate manner based on whatever the stressor was. So, that's just some other context that I think is helpful before diving into the technique. Yeah, the how.
Andy Mewborn:
Yeah. Dude, how would you explain, like, if I don't exercise in the morning, like, if I don't exercise in the day, I like, I feel like shit, man. Like, I feel, I feel, you know what I'm saying? Like, if I don't, I kind of like am mad at myself, you know, or it's like a mix of guilt, or a mix of like, hey, you should have done that today, but you didn't. And like, maybe it's more of a mental thing than it is like a nervous system thing, or maybe it's all tied together, but I always feel like guilty, you know? And then like, and I, I'm just so used to it. It's like my routine now that like first thing in the morning, I wake up at five. I have to go exercise, you know, like that's just my thing. And if I don't do it first thing in the morning, I won't do it later in the day because I'm like mentally kind of exhausted from calls and doing stuff and ride all that. And I'm like, you know, and then if I don't do it, I'm like, shoot, like I will be kind of upset at myself, which keeps me disciplined in a way. But at the same time, I, I noticed a stark difference between me having that exercise and not, which seems counterintuitive because I'm putting more stress on my body with the exercise. Yet I feel more upset when I'm or guilty at myself when I'm not doing it. Right. And so I wonder if there's something at play here that, that, that I should be aware of.
Jonny Miller:
Yeah. Well, that's, that's, it's interesting. So, I mean, exercise in itself is, is obviously almost always like fantastic. Like we need to move our bodies. We need to get exercise. It releases a bunch of great chemicals. I think where the potential pitfall is, and I see this with, you know, I've worked with a few professional athletes in the past is. if you are becoming reliant on the exercise in order to function and feel good, that's usually a sign that there's something to kind of be addressed there. And I'm not saying this is true for you, but I know for certainly some athletes, they will use the kind of adrenaline and cortisol release and the hormones that get released after exercise as a way of not feeling certain emotions, which would arise if they were to just like actually rest and do nothing for like two or three days. And so, yeah, it can become another, you know, in the same way as you get like adrenaline junkies, like, there's so many different ways that we can escape what we're feeling internally. And on the surface, those things can even be healthy, you know, like, outdoor rock climbing, or like extreme surfing, or free solo climbing, like who knows what it is. And on the surface they're great for us, but if they are being used to avoid the discomfort of feeling the feelings and sensations and emotions that arise when we're not active all the time, then that's something to be explored as well.
Andy Mewborn:
Yeah, I think so. I will say I have ADHD. I've had it since I was a kid, obviously. So like for me, which it's helped me in certain ways, right? Like it's like it's kind of especially in today's kind of world where like you're always context switching and like. You know, um, you're, you're running in sprints where you can focus for me. I can focus like really thoroughly for, you know, three hours at a time. But then after that, I'm like on the, you know, my mind is somewhere else, but like, you can't have extreme focus. And for me, I think I have this, this is the feeling that I think would erupt with me, which is like on why I need exercise in the morning is I kind of am addicted to feeling like I'm like making progress, I guess, which is right. Like I want to feel like I'm getting better at something every day. And I'm improving. And at least that's what I tell myself, even though like I went on a five mile run this morning, this morning, not on this weekend, dude, I fatigued like three miles in. And it's probably because I didn't take any days off. And I was like, no, like no days off, you know, like David Goggins, like, you know. David Goggins myself, you know, I was like imagining him yelling at me or something. And so, dude, I went and then three miles in, that's why I went and got my burrito. And then I got stuck in a fucking elevator. This is my sign, man. You know, I'm like, shit, it's that feeling of progress, right? And like, in what I'm hearing from you is, It might be that like maybe I'm fooling myself, right? I think it's progress when it's really it comes back to the recovery thing, dude, like progress may be recovery as well.
Jonny Miller:
Yeah.
Andy Mewborn:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jonny Miller:
So yeah, this is interesting, man. Yeah. So there's a bunch of interesting stuff in what you said. Like one thing that comes to mind is like, this question that a mentor of mine asked once, which was, who would you be without the doing? And I remember at the time, I'd like very much tied my identity to the kind of external progress that I was making in terms of like new users for the startup. that we were getting and like how much could I bench press you know all those things that were like external ways of measuring my own worthiness as a human and it was a it was a pretty like it took probably several years but like extracting my identity with those ways in which I made progress and like felt good about myself so that I could even if they went away, you know, if I was injured or I was sick or whatever, I didn't feel shit about myself because I wasn't doing those things. So I think that's like one kind of piece on the psychology front. And the other piece is, I think there's a balance between like, like building capacity, which is kind of what you're talking about. Like you are, by doing this amount of physical exercise, you're improving your body's capacity to kind of tolerate stress and you're building like a, a very wide window of tolerance is what it's known. But there's also this capacity, like we were talking about earlier, of downshifting as well. So you can have a high capacity to kind of run at fast speeds for long periods of time, endurance, but then there's also the capacity of your parasympathetic nervous system, which is then how deeply can you relax and unwind and kind of, and chill at the end of the day as well. That is often the thing which needs training. Like it's, it nerves like everything else. And the more that we, you know, whether it's through float tanks, NSDR, mindful, like there's different ways of training it, but it's something that is so important. And without that, we will build up this debt over a period of time, which will eventually increase the fatigue, increase, you know, random chronic health conditions and that kind of stuff.
Andy Mewborn:
And what about what about my way of doing it, which is the Netflix way? How is that? I know it's not healthy, but like, you know, all these things in your face, you know, like animations and white and blue light and all this stuff in your face, like before bed. Yeah. So like, you know, I need to change something. I know that, um, on that. And I, you know, I've known it's not the healthiest, but has there been any studies or anything that you've found on, on, on using, you know, content like that to try and relax?
Jonny Miller:
Yeah well there's so something like Netflix is definitely better than like scrolling through Twitter or social media because it's less like kind of context switching and fewer dopamine hits. I would say that if you're watching any if you're looking at any screen long after it's gone dark that's going to impact your your body's capacity to produce melatonin, which will allow you to feel sleepy and then sleep deeply. So even if you're falling asleep, because you're exposing your eyes to basically like bright blue light before sleep, that's going to impact the quality of the sleep that you're getting. And I say this like being someone like my wife and I love like fantasy shows on Netflix, like we love that stuff. What we try and do is get it in like earlier in the evening, like maybe just after it's gone dark or as the sun's setting. And again, I think it's like, it's like your relationship to the thing, right? So it's not that Netflix is bad. It's like, are you using Netflix because it's the only way that you're able to downshift in the evening? If that's the case, then that's really something to explore, right? It's like, what is maybe getting in the way of my, like, why is my mind racing so that I'm only able to unwind if I watch this like random show on Netflix? and explore that for yourself or with, you know, with someone else and see what might be underneath that.
Andy Mewborn:
Yeah. And one thing, dude, that you said, which is like kind of a crazy question, the, what would you be without all the doing? That's like stripping yourself down to like raw materials, right? It's kind of like what it is. It's like, holy, it's like who, like, that's like a great journal prompt, man. Like, um, I don't know. Like I can't even answer that. I'd have to like sit and write that out. But like going back to that, like. What did you say to yourself when you said, well, what would you be with all the doing? Like, like what did you, I want to know what you, you said, how you wrapped your mind around it. Cause I'm, I'm curious. And maybe this is TMI. I'm getting too personal.
Jonny Miller:
It's great. It's great. Um, yeah, this was like most relevant for me after I, after I left the startup map tier that we talked about earlier and my, my identity had been so tied to that, right. That was like my friendship circles. It was like my, my success in the world. And that was kind of stripped away. And so I, it was almost like my life raft was like taken away from me. And it forced me to, to find, I remember coming across this quote of joy is the happiness that doesn't depend on what happens. And it forced me into this inquiry of like, how can I find a sense of like, feeling really good without being dependent on anything that's outside of myself, which is kind of what I'm, in some ways, what I'm teaching with nervous system mastery is like cultivating that agency of control over our state so that we're not relying on external things, milestones, progress, whatever the thing is, so we can just cultivate that within ourselves. And the journey that I see a lot of people go through, I went through this myself, is I think of it as like changing the fuel source. So often in the early stages, we can be very driven by like the need to prove our father that we're good, or the need to prove this person wrong, or like the fear of not amounting to anything. Like often we're driven by these like toxic fuel sources, which it's like rocket fuel. It's like very effective in the short term, but it burns us out pretty quickly. And so, when you're changing the fuel source, there can often be, you know, a period where on the outside, it doesn't look like much is happening. Like you, you might just be sitting around and like, honestly, recovering, like paying off some of that emotional debt and going through a period where there's not external progress results. But at some point that the fuel hose will shift into, you'll start to be driven by like just pure excitement for like the thing that you're creating or you'll go for a run because you just really want to be outside and it feels good. And it's not about like getting a streak or running a certain distance. Um, so really the, the, the shift is going from being extrinsically motivated to being intrinsically motivated and doing basically what feels good for you. Um, and that's, that I say was, that was pretty much my journey. And then, throw in some meditation retreats and hundreds of breathwork journeys and plant medicine work and things like that. And, uh, yeah, I'll, I'll pause there.
Andy Mewborn:
Hundreds of breathwork and like, you love mapia. And so you were just on this, like, I guess that question of like, what am I without all the doing is kind of what led you on this like journey, right? Of like self-discovery, like what do I care about? What makes me happy? Which that question alone is something I've, I've, I think I've like had an epiphany about lately is that like, You've always want to ask like questions that sound super smart, but sometimes the best answers come from the questions that are the most simple. Yeah. You know, totally. Like what makes me happy? Like sounds like a simple question, you know, but like, holy shit, it's hard. Like, you know, sometimes it's not easy to answer that. And it can lead to the best answers, right? Because I'm not worried about sounding smart or making a crazy question sound super... My IQ is the highest ever. I'm trying to figure out... Use simplicity to ask these questions. So for that question, what makes me happy? That in itself, I'm like, shit, thinking that right now, you know? What truly does? I mean, I'll tell you off the bat, my son, I have an 18-month-old son now, so yeah, that's like a crazy blessing. That changed my whole perspective on life, really. I look at him, I'm like, what shifted? I think for me, Dude, there's just this level of empathy that I think you developed that you didn't know was possible. It's a level of empathy where you're not the most important thing. You're not the most important thing. And people will tell you that, But you don't feel it and you don't recognize it until you have him or her there. You know what I'm saying? Like people will tell you everything and all the feelings and all the stuff before and you're like, Oh, sure. Sounds good. But until you have that little thing, they're like running, you know, kicking you in the leg or whatever. you know, hitting you with a, you know, a golf club. Cause my son likes to do that at this point. He has a plastic golf club and he'll wake me up and hit me in the head with it. You know, shit like that. So like, so there's just a level of empathy. I think empathy is the biggest thing. And, um, the other thing is, uh, I think you become more productive honestly, without trying. in a way because you kind of time block and like you, you prior, you learn to prioritize more and I've always been a prioritizer and all that, but like you kind of like you have hard deadlines on stuff almost like, you know, a timer, which could be good and bad mentally, but good because at five, once 5pm hits, I have an alarm on my phone that's like, it's super dad time, you know, like I'm super dad. Once five hits and that ugly alarm goes off, I'm like, you know, that sound is terrible, but like, I should make a better sound. Um, but like the sound sucks, but then it's super dad time, you know? And so for me, it goes back to like, I'm not the most important thing. And like, you start to think, what can I like how everything that you do affects another being. And like, you kind of do that when you get married, as you probably know, like how, you know, I have to talk to the wife and all this stuff. Um, but, It's like a next level with a baby, man. It's like next freaking level. And so, yeah, man, that's what I would say has really changed. And then, of course, you get less sleep. So that's the that's the obvious one. You know, hopefully he starts to sleep more soon, but he likes to wake up at five every morning, you know, like he won't sleep past five, which is good for me. I'm up at five anyways. OK. But yeah, I think that's what's changed for me, man. And going back, I want to go full circle with this because recovery, you know, I think for me, a way to recover as well is to spend time with my son. Right. And that's kind of like that's kind of my way to recover as well as I am going to go spend time with him. And we're going to just do dumb stuff like kick the soccer ball over the edge or whatever we do, you know. And so, yeah, man, I think That's a great question.
Jonny Miller:
Thank you for asking, but that's how to summarize it, you know, in that sense, you know, so, so I love that you brought in like playing with your son as a way to recover and yeah, play is actually something that is only possible when the social branch or the ventral vagal branch of our nervous system is activated. And that is basically like that branch. It's known as the like ventral break and it's basically the healthy way to downshift. So if you're able to get to a state where you're able to play and not be thinking about something or be stressed out, it's like active recovery. It's a really great way. And you're also co-regulating with another human that you care about, whether that's your son or your wife. So those are, I think, underestimated ways of recovering. I know for myself, if I'm feeling activated for whatever reason, if I go and cuddle with my wife and our puppy for two minutes, I'll feel my nervous system. There's like a sigh. Oh, wow. And it doesn't I didn't do it. It's just like, and this is another principle from the training is like, creating the conditions for your desired state to arise. And so that and I feel like that is the role of the mind and a lot of this work is not to not to do the thing like you don't do sleep, but you create the conditions for sleepiness to come up in your body. So looking at a screen, a blue light is the opposite of that. You're like creating the conditions for wakefulness because you're looking at a screen. But if you're able to create, you know, maybe lie down, maybe like take some size, um, have a dark environment, you know, all these things that create the conditions for melatonin to be produced in the body, which then creates sleepiness and you'll start to yawn and et cetera, et cetera. That applies to states of creativity. It applies to states of calm. It applies to states of alertness and like, you know, go, go, go kind of mindset. Um, but I think it's, it's a different way than most people think about it.
Andy Mewborn:
And there's, there's so many different, like, you know, if you do scroll social media, there's cold plunges, there's saunas, there's infrared, there's, I don't know, acupuncture, there's a million different things you can do, right? Like, you know, like the, the, the, the gurus, like, you know, three hour morning routine that everyone makes on it. Right. You know, like, um, like, What would you say of all of those? Like, are they all, are any of them, what's underrated and what's overrated? I get, let's play a game. Like what's underrated, what's overrated? Let's play this game. Cause I'm curious, man. Cause I'm not going to lie. Like we both had, I had Ryan Dewey on, I was on your podcast as well. Saw that you bought Ryan. He's a friend as well. And yeah, Ryan's a good, yeah. Awesome dude. I mean, I mean, amazing. He's basically brought like cold plunging to like, the mass market, right, which is crazy. And so, yeah, what what's underrated, what's overrated in this whole like, you know, morning routine saunas and all this stuff here? Like is something overplayed? I'm curious. Or maybe they each just do a certain job that that I don't know about.
Jonny Miller:
Yeah, so let's do this. I'll choose one in the overrated category and one in the underrated and explain why.
Andy Mewborn:
Yes, this is fun.
Jonny Miller:
Let's do this. One that I would place in the very much overrated is Wim Hof breathing. Take out the cold exposure for a second, because that's got a separate response. But by breathing in that, excuse me, I'm getting over cold. By breathing in that very activated way, you are, which is kind of like, like hyperventilating, you're hugely stimulating the sympathetic response, you're creating a lot of adrenaline in the system. And it means that you will feel very activated for, you know, the next like few hours probably, but It's for most people that they don't have a problem getting activated. Like they have a problem with the downshifting like we've just been talking about. So if you're someone who is doing Wim Hof breathing, but you have a tendency towards anxiety or feeling ungrounded or having like mental thoughts spinning, that's going to make it worse. Like that's the opposite of what most people need. And it's practiced so widely and it's kind of talked about is this like having health benefits, partly because of the studies Wim Hof did, which do in the short term, because you've got cortisol and adrenaline in your system, which activates your immune system. But if you do that every day for like more than a couple of weeks, it's gonna start to have negative consequences. So that is something that I think is highly overrated. In the underrated category, I would put practices like, I think non-sleep deep rest, which is a term that Huberman coined to basically describe Yoga Nidra, that to me is a fantastic practice for at least three reasons. One is that it's by doing, so I'll just describe it briefly, you lie down and somewhere between 15 to 10 to 30 minutes, you do a guided body scan. So you listen to audio, you're lying down and you're moving your attention to different points around the body. That's basically it. And maybe there's some like relaxing music in the background as well. But by doing that, you're cultivating your capacity for interoception, which is what we talked about earlier, which is your ability to sense, track and feel what's actually going on inside. Because it usually lasts for about 15-20 minutes, you're flushing cortisol from the system, which usually takes about 20-30 minutes to do. And you're also accessing this, this deep state of rest, which if you do, you know, between 2 to 4 PM in the afternoon, when our energy levels are naturally dipping a little bit anyway, you're giving your body that like that deep rest and nourishment. That means you can kind of go on in the afternoon. Um, and you haven't been like this, like high sympathetic, like go, go, go attitude the entire day. So it's almost like it's, it's like a supercharged power nap. Um, but it's probably the most, one of the most popular practices of all of the ones that I teach. And I think it's the one that's needed most precisely because most people need to cultivate this ability to go from being like creative and active and output into downshifting. And it's also, you know, most people can spare 15 to 30 minutes a day, especially if you're working at home, you can just like after lunch, go, go lie down and put on the audio and then get up feeling rejuvenated, like 20 minutes later.
Andy Mewborn:
Yeah. Okay. I'm going to have to try it. I think I've heard him mention that before. What's it called again?
Jonny Miller:
The NSDR, which is non sleep, deep rest. And I can send you a YouTube links for some that I've recorded.
Andy Mewborn:
Yeah. I'll put it in the show notes too. So people can have that. It's freaking awesome. And then, so that was the, that was the underrated, which, which is also very simple to do. Okay. How do we feel about like, um, so my wife wants a sauna. Right. And she was looking at this like pretty one on the Instagram ads or whatever, but it was infrared. Right. It was like infrared versus I'm an old school guy. So I'm like, hey, do you like the hot rock? Like, keep keep it simple. You know, none of this like fake stuff, like just do natural heat and natural just always sounds better to me. Right. Like, oh, natural heat makes something hot. But what's that like on terms of like the infrared versus like the hot rock? Do they both have different benefits or is one overrated, underrated? Like what's that whole world look like?
Jonny Miller:
Yeah, so funny you should mention this. I'm in the process of building an outdoor sauna today. Building the platform right now and it's with the hot rocks. So it's kind of the traditional Finnish style. Yeah. The best research on sauna has been done by Dr. Rhonda Patrick that I'm aware of and She basically believes that the infrared saunas don't tend to get up to high enough temperatures to see the benefits of like heat exposure with the heat shock proteins, things like that. So there are some, I believe, benefits to near and far infrared light exposure, but that's different to the heat component, which typically comes from sauna. I'm a big fan of hot and cold and particularly combining them. It's also a great way to downshift at the end of the day. For a while, I did sauna pretty much every evening as a way of downshifting and also connecting with other people. It's a great way to have conversations. Um, as long as you're getting enough fluids in, then it's, it's really, really good. Um, I would say that building in now that I'm in the process of building an outdoor wooden sauna is a thing and they tend to be more expensive than the infrared ones. But if you have the resources available and you have the space, I'd highly recommend, uh, I got one from Northern saunas, which were the best ones that I could, I could find, but I'm sure there's other good brands out there as well.
Andy Mewborn:
Yeah. And is, and how, so you, when you do all this stuff, how do you like measure, I'm like crazy about like measure obviously like so when you when you're doing Ironman training or like endurance training or whatever. you're, you're, you're training like most of the time in zone two. So like everything is based on heart rate, right? Everything's like based on, okay, which most people don't think this is a, don't think you, they think you train crazy hard, like for like hours. And it's like, no, you do like conversational pace, but for long periods, like zone two is like, it's not hard, right? It's hard to do it for long periods, but it's not hard in terms of the intensity. Right. And so, cause that's, I know there's a bunch of stuff on why zone two, but basically you build an aerobic base. makes your heart more efficient, da da da da da. But with that, how are you measuring the effectiveness of the sauna, right? It may just be a feeling, dude, I don't know, right? Like, oh shit, I feel better after the sauna, you know? And that's okay too, but then again, this is probably my downfall, is I'm like, all right, where's the numbers and where's the data and where's the technology, right? So what are like if I was one of your students, right? How would you be like, hey, this is how would you monitor that per se? Or is it all anecdotal?
Jonny Miller:
Yeah. So I'll preface this by saying that I think wearables and tracking is great, but specifically if they are used as a means of improving your sense of interoception, because no amount of data is like when you have a highly attuned system is going to be as accurate as your own internal awareness, right? So yeah, in the beginning, using like tracking spreadsheets, things like that is is helpful because you can then compare with like, do these numbers match how I'm feeling internally? Or is there a discrepancy? And if so, why? So it's like it becomes a tool for self inquiry. But in terms of the actual numbers that I think are really worth tracking. The main one, honestly, I think is average resting heart rate variability or HRV, which I'm sure you've been tracking. The nightly resting is good, but generally you want like a kind of weekly average resting baseline. That's a pretty solid proxy for how resilient is your nervous system at that point in time. If it starts to go, and it's worth mentioning that everyone has a different baseline, There are things you can do to increase and improve the baseline, at least that I believe, but you basically want to know like, what's your normal baseline? And when you start to drop below that for more than say a week, that's the time to kind of start asking questions. Be like, okay, I'm probably under-recovered right now. I need to, or I've been pushing it too hard. Basically what it does is it measures the gap between the sympathetic and the parasympathetic system. So if the parasympathetic isn't online, you'll have a low HRV score basically. And I'm sure you've seen that that probably correlates to how you feel in your, and your performance, I imagine as well in, in your training.
Andy Mewborn:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The resting heart rate is like definitely.
Jonny Miller:
So it's, so it's resting heart rate and it's heart rate variability, which HRV.
Andy Mewborn:
Yeah. That HRV. Yeah. which is the interesting one I'm looking at. And it's obviously as you exercise more too, you see the average kind of come down over time, right? It's kind of like, like I've been training harder recently and I don't know if this is good or bad, but my resting heart rate has been like... dropped significantly when I've tried to start getting really back into training, you know, um, not significantly where I'm like, Oh, my heart's going to stop. But like, hopefully not. Uh, but like, you know what I mean? It's come down and you're like, Holy crap. That's interesting. Like that, that's an interesting sign. Like the heart is kind of crazy in that sense.
Jonny Miller:
Has your HRV increased? Because ideally you want a low resting heart rate but a high HRV score.
Andy Mewborn:
That's what I have. Yeah, the low resting heart rate, high HRV, right? But the low resting heart rate is the interesting one that's kind of like, for me that I look at ver over a period of time, right? Like, am I getting stronger? Cause if I have a lower heart rate, my body's, you know, in, in layman's terms, chilling, I feel like a little bit more, at least I like to think so, you know, again, I'm not a doctor, so I'm just like using, you know, this endurance kind of my Ironman coach words for it. But, um, that's it. It's so interesting in that sense. And another question I have for you, Johnny, is you've worked with hardcore athletes, professional athletes on all this stuff. For them, are you specifically working on this nervous system stuff? Like for sleep or like, what are the main, cause they have a strength coach, they have a, they have an ex coach for whatever. So for you specifically, like what are those main things that you're helping the best athletes in the world do? Right? Like the top, you know, professional athletes, like what specifically are you helping them with in kind of their day to day?
Jonny Miller:
Yeah, so I've worked more with, I'd say, startup founders and leaders and some athletes as well. But the theme is kind of the same. It's like want to perform at a high level. And that's the goal. Really, we're working on the capacity to downshift and recover. When I was living in Bali, I did a number of in-person breathwork sessions. And that, for me, was one of the highest levers in terms of return on time investment, basically. Because in those sessions, the technique is called facilitated breath-free patterning. by breathing in a certain way you create an altered state of consciousness and then I'm able to see where is the breath getting stuck and where the breath isn't moving or gets stuck is usually correlated with some kind of incomplete reflex or request emotion. which is impacting their ability to recover downshift or show up fully with whatever they're doing. So by breathing in this way, they're able to feel whatever the emotion is, complete that buffered reflex from their past, and the breath then moves more fluidly. And as I'm sure you know, the breath is a really key thing if you're an athlete or if you're a knowledge worker as well. If your breath is is stuck in like the upper chest and you're breathing shallow, you don't have, you're missing out on so much capacity. It's like you're watering down your own espresso or whatever metaphor you wanna do. You're just like, you're like leaving energy on the table. So by freeing up the breath, by helping people to have a more like diaphragmatic, Breath like breath day-to-day like you breathe. I know 23,000 times per day like that has Pretty major benefits both on the nervous system and also how they feel day-to-day.
Andy Mewborn:
That's great, dude I'll tell you one of the craziest like nervous system, I would say experiences I've ever had. All right. And it was it was it was not a breathing. I've tried the breathing techniques. I've tried the meditation in my my ADHD just goes crazy. And like, it's very hard for me to do there, which probably means I need it. Right. Which is like the sign that I need to do more. But the craziest experience I had is I have a mentor who was a who was Tony Robbins is, you know, right hand man for like years. Right. And and so he sent me he's like, hey, I'm going to send you and a couple other people that I know to to a Tony Robbins event. And I go, at first I was like, ah, kind of woo woo. I was like, oh, really? Like, I don't know. And I went and like some of the stuff is definitely like, like, you know, like educational, some of it's kind of, but there was the second day and it was like a four day event. And the second day, dude, was crazy because you basically, Like you were like yelling at the top of your lungs, right? Like you were just like with a stadium of people and you were just yelling. Like, and I forgot what we were yelling about. And you would hear some people like crying out loud, just yelling, right? Like, like letting things out, I guess. And like just screaming things out. And at a certain point, dude, I felt like I was like on ecstasy or something. And I don't even know what it was. I was like, dude, I feel like amazing right now. This is great. Like, you know, we won't get into the drugs and ayahuasca and crazy stuff like that. But like I was like, holy shit, like. this is insane. And I, and I was like, I've never felt like this naturally before. And it was just after screaming, man. And like, that was the weirdest thing to me because I was like, shit, maybe I should just go outside and like scream all the time. You know, people are going to think I'm crazy though. I don't know. But like, it was, it was this wild thing. So I don't know if you've ever experienced that or done that as part of breath Is it breathwork? I don't know. Right. But it was something and I'm sure my nervous system had something to do with it because I felt like a high like I've never felt before naturally.
Jonny Miller:
Yeah. So yeah, this is great. A couple of things I want to mention. One, if we set aside the fact that you were like at a Tony Robbins event and there's like an altered state created by just being, it's almost like being at a rock concert, right? I've not been, I've seen the documentary. Let's set aside like that for a moment. By releasing generally like anger in a healthy way, I honestly think that's one of the most effective mechanisms for, I see it shift people's depression in particular. So I've, I can't remember where I read this, but Roughly like 70 to 80% of people who are depressed, it's correlated with repressed anger. Like for whatever reason, even if they don't think that they're angry, they are repressing that anger down. Maybe they hurt someone with the anger, maybe they were told it was bad, maybe they think it makes them a bad person, but for whatever reason, they don't allow themselves to feel the anger that's there. And by creating conditions where anger, rage can be safely expressed and released, like not at someone, that's never a good thing. But if you're just like screaming into the void, screaming into a pillow, into a big space, that releases that kind of like stored trapped energy that the repressed anger is creating. And so that's probably what you experienced. And I see that in Breathbook as well, like particularly people that struggle with breathing fully into their upper lungs, there's often like some stuckness around the sternum and the ribcage. And often that is related to, or there's sometimes like redness will appear in the body as well. That's like there's anger or energy there that wants to move. And so what we normally do is we call it like an arm compression. So I stand above them, kind of hold their arms and they push against the, my arms saying like, no, or letting out like a really loud sound, whatever that loud sound is. and that do that like a handful of times and they will they'll like end up laughing they'll end up crying they'll end up like feeling elated kind of like you say it's like a way to kind of access this stored emotional debt that I was talking about earlier. Wow.
Andy Mewborn:
Okay. I need to do this more, man.
Jonny Miller:
I'm telling you. Great. Like, like having, I mean, even giving yourself like an, an anger practice, right? Like, so, um, I, I tell clients like you can do it sometimes in the car, if you're going like on a highway, you know, no one can hear you do it. Like when, when you're running in through the trees, do it like if as an empty house, do it in your bedroom, do it into a pillow. You know, there's places you can find where you can make as much noise as you want. You know, obviously you want to, You don't want to destroy your vocal cords because you might lose your voice if you do it too much. There's even certain movements like hitting pillows in a safe way with this part of your arm can be a way to kind of get it out as well. If you have a good friend and you want to just do it together and wrestle at the same time, that can be fun.
Andy Mewborn:
I'm going to fly to Colorado, dude. We're doing this, man. We're going to wrestle, just scream, man. That's going to be what we do. Yeah. That's amazing, man. Well, Johnny, dude, man, it has been so great catching up with you, dude. Like I am, I just want to say I'm rooting for you, man. Uh, I've followed your journey for what? 10 years. You've inspired me to do, you know, move to Chile, do startup Chile and all that stuff, man. So, and I never even, I don't even think I ever told you that. Um, but me and our mom, who is my buddy and, uh my best friend still till this day and uh so yeah i just want to thank you for that man and for hopping on and i'm dude i'm rooting for you as i you know happy to help in any way i can brother um and yeah man i'm i i think i do think i'm you're gonna be like the next hooverman out there man once people realize that like the breath is the way you know um and so i appreciate it man um thank you All right, man. Well, hey, lovely to see you, man. And much love to you and your wife, brother. I'll talk to you soon. Later, bro. Peace.
