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In this thought-provoking video, we explore the concept of visibility and recognition in the modern business world, particularly through the lens of online presence. Not everyone who is making significant impacts in their fields is active on social media. We discuss the often overlooked truth that many successful professionals, dubbed the 'real gangsters' of their industries, choose to focus intensely on their roles rather than promoting their accomplishments online. This video delves into the reasons behind their choice and the benefits it can bring to their professional lives. Tune in as we unravel the stories of these unsung heroes who prove that success isn't just about visibility but also about dedication and hard work behind the scenes. Be sure to like, comment, and subscribe for more insights into the diverse ways people achieve success in their careers.
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Mark:
I remember I read somebody the other day was like, you know, who's the real gangsters out there? It's all the CROs that don't post online because they're busy doing their job. And I was like, I feel you.
Andy: And I know some people are like, oh, well, like, I mean, why would I post content? I'm in sales. And I'm like, content is sales, dude.
Mark: This is more specialization, but actually leads to less human capital, which is a very inverse relationship normally. Like, you know, if you specialize more, you have to hire more humans. The purpose of this specialization is to hire less humans, but to make a human like an absolute rock star in a specific channel.
Andy: Dude, let's talk about… I think it would be… Actually, you know what's something weird that came up? I was looking at the invite and I was like, Andy, Mark, and I knew it was me and you meeting, but then it said, Mark at GetKata. What was it? GetKata. Revenue Kata. Revenue Kata. And I was like, who is this? I was like, who is this? What's Revenue Kata? And then I was like, Oh, no, this is Mark. Oh, this is his fractional CRO stuff that he's doing. So, dude, tell me about the latest on that. What's going on there? Because I want to make sure I am in the loop on it.
Mark: It's nothing much, man. I always have a few companies that I'm consulting or advising. It's just… It's always good to get your brain off of your job for a couple hours a week and put it on somebody else's problem and like it just gives you fresh ideas and there's points of connection and so many times those things turn into other relationships too but yeah it's just it's nothing big it's just something I need I was like hey I'm not getting any tax benefit of how I'm doing all this like let me just spin it up real quick and it's nothing it's not literally nothing more than that.
Andy: Okay. Okay. I was curious about that. I was like, Oh, okay. Okay. But let's talk about, I think what I want people to get out of this is how to build a world-class sales org. How to start thinking about building a world-class sales org. And what you should start to think about that, going back to what you said, you look at these orgs, they come to you for the sales advice, for the go to marketing advice. So I think what we can do is break this down. You started at Outreach, like you were the first hire and you were going commission only. That's correct. So you've seen it from, you know, little baby inception to all the way to, you know, big dog, pre IPO type company. So in a lot of these startups that are coming up, like let's talk about what are the big commonalities you're seeing or trends that you're seeing in, in, in this world. And what are people doing right currently? And then maybe what are they doing and thinking about in the wrong way, uh, as they're going, you know, and trying to think of a spinning up their first sales hire of hiring a VP or just a sales motion in general.
Mark: I would say that the biggest mistake I see when I come into a company that is either struggling with or even happy, whatever, with their first sales hire is they didn't really define the role. And see, what happens is a lot of sales, like a head of sales or somebody that comes in at the very beginning and the first salesperson, they start to get involved in building the business more than building the revenue. And so I think that was one thing that made us so successful at outreach is when I came in, Manny, for some reason, trusted me a ton and he left sales and he started doing other stuff. Now, of course, if we needed him, he'd come back in, but like he let me do my thing. And you know what, though? I didn't really talk to board and investors very much. I didn't like sit in on product, weekly product update meetings. I didn't work on the marketing plan. You know what I worked on? Building pipeline and closing deals. And that was it because my role was really well defined. I was the VP of sales. My job was to sign money so that Manny could use that to raise or invest or whatever we needed to do. And I think Manny was freed up from thinking about revenue as much. Not that he didn't think about it because of course he did. But I don't think he thought about it as much and therefore he had capacity to do these other things that forwarded the business. But I didn't get confused. I didn't like, why am I not in this meeting? What's going on with this meeting? How come I'm not involved in here? What was that decision that was made? I didn't get to say. If you didn't have to do with sales and revenue, I just ignored it. And that let me stay super laser focused on just doing that. So, I think that's the biggest mistake is the role isn't well defined and then that VP of sales creeps too much into the business and the CEO creeps back too much into sales. And the next thing you know, like they're both pissed at each other.
Andy: Yeah. And I think there's a bigger thing going on here with this. And personally, I do this to myself, which is like shiny object syndrome. Right. And you're like, oh, shit, well, I should do this and I should do. And then something else pops up. Maybe I should do this and maybe I should do this. And then. But what the best people are doing is they have just that laser focus on one freaking day. And their threshold, their yes threshold of saying yes to things as they've like upped the bar on what that is, right? So everything's no. And then there's this threshold where it's like, used to be down here. Yeah, I'll say yes to everything. And I feel like it's kind of like this ladder, you know?
Mark: But you feel like, I don't know, like, man, who actually does that? You know, like in theory, it sounds awesome. And like once a month, like you get three hours where you actually do that. And like, you're like, oh, my God, I need to do this more. But like that's like being like, I'm going to focus in on being the best boyfriend I can. And you know what, kids? Sorry, you're second tier now. I got to say no to you to make sure my relationship is number one. You can't do that. You got to be a good dad and you got to be a good boyfriend and you got to be a good employee and you got to be a good friend. Like, I'm sorry, we're not getting out of the ball juggling. You know what I mean?
Andy: You're going to be always juggling balls. That is true. That is true. So, going back to your point then, right? If you're always juggling balls, what did you do if you were maniacally focused on this? Yes, sales pipeline, sales pipeline, sales pipeline. And I'm sure you got thrown certain things, right? As this VP of sales and sales leader, how would you handle that?
Mark: Well, as the subject matter expert on sales to four co-founders that were building a sales-related product that I think only Manny had any kind of sales background. So, of course, they needed a perspective. You know, that it doesn't mean that I didn't like when they asked me for information, I was, you know, Heisman, right now.
Andy: Yeah.
Mark: And, you know, and again, like I felt the pool too. Like the pool of taking yourself out of that high pressure sales quota, need to make money, got to get people to do stuff, to a very different kind of role, which is project management. I'm going to give you input. Let's talk together and whiteboard it. And then we can make a decision because it's just the two of us in this room about this thing, right? There's a pool to that because you feel so much more control. And you know, I really call it there's performance-based jobs and project-based jobs. Sales is a performance-based job. You have to perform on quota. If you're a developer though, it's a project-based job. You just have to go on project. Well, performance usually involves other humans that you have to get to do stuff to make your performance work. Project is you can kind of do it yourself. That doesn't mean you don't have a team or whatever, but getting your team to do something is very different than getting a stranger to do something. I stayed in the performance space. I didn't let the project-based stuff pull me over in there. You know, it's funny, I came into one company, Newborn, and they have more sales documentation with six AEs than we had with 200 AEs at Outreach. And I was like, oh my God, you know what I found out? Homeboy was never in sales calls, wasn't doing call coaching. All he was doing was writing out his master plan and notion all day long. And so, you know, you can't go to that project-based stuff in early stages. Your first sales hire, first and foremost, must love selling. Not making money, not winning, just selling. Because that's what they, if you don't love selling, you're not, you're going to gravitate away from it. I love to sell because for me, selling is helping. I love helping people out. I love diagnosing problems, educating. I love all that kind of stuff. And so, I will default to the sales meeting over the boring internal meeting. Even though that boring internal meeting lets me pop my collar because look how important I am to be in this meeting with the other executives.
Andy: Fuck that, man.
Mark: I don't want that shit. Put me in the sales call right now with a rep and let's make some money. Then I'll go strap my shit with the executives with a closed one deal on my back, you know?
Andy: Yeah. Yeah. And it kind of like big picture here. You can almost find your priorities by looking at what you default to. Hmm. Right. And that's what I hear what you're saying is like, if you're defaulting to the notion master plan and documenting everything, that's probably your priority. And if that's your priority, it's almost like a question, like, is that the right shit that I should be doing? Um, and so going back to this, like, what are you deep? What's I think looking inward, if we're going to get, you know, a mentor here, what are you defaulting to? And is that the right daily activity that you should be doing to hit whatever the top of the mountain is? Right. And, um, shit. I do that all the time. Personally, you know, you know, running. Yeah. And you, yeah, you didn't tell it and you're like, you do it a couple of weeks and then you're like, you start to think like, Oh, I'm defaulting to this thing. And then you catch yourself and you're like, why am I like writing this content thing when I should just be, DMing people specifically that I know I should be talking to right now, right? Like, why try and go around it and recreate this content plan and do all this when it's like, no, just DM the exact people that you want to chat with.
Mark: I don't think that there's maybe anything more beneficial. And listen, I don't want to say I'm good at this. I'm horrible at it. Probably is a much better assessment. But like sitting down in the morning, me like, what do I want to do today? Versus like sitting down in the morning and you hit slack and you respond to those. And you hit your email and you respond to those. And you look at your calendar and see what meetings you got on the day. But by then your first meeting's already started. And the next thing you know, you're in default mode. Because the only way to defeat default is being so intentional about not doing the default and going to what's most important. That's the only way to get over the default. Otherwise, that default is a gravity well. It'll pull you in like a black hole and crush you. So you got to like hit that. You got to hit the ludicrous speed mode, if you know what I'm saying. Yeah, I see you're sure you're as big as mine, but let's see how you handle it.
Andy: Yes, let's go. Going back to these default things, what are the other defaults that you're seeing companies default to right now? It's 2024. This predictable revenue model is like, let's call it, it's not as predictable. As before, right? Let's just call it a revenue model. And I know you're working with like Mary Shea or someone on this specifically, this stuff, right? Mary Lou Tyler. Mary Lou Tyler, sorry. Mary Lou Tyler, not Mary Shea. One of the smartest people on the planet. Yeah. And you're working with her. She wrote what? Predictable Prospecting.
Mark: You wrote Predictable Revenue and Predictable Prospecting. Yep.
Andy: So, what are some… Shoot, maybe you're going to give away a little bit of secrets. Hopefully. But what's some of the stuff that you're working with her and that you see kind of changing away from this predictable revenue model that may work or not be working? Or maybe we're in this limbo mode that we don't know yet.
Mark: So, what I would tell you is Mary Lou is an engineer and a software developer sort of by trade. She just stumbled into sales. And that might not be quite accurate, but she got into sales. And so, everything she looks at is through that very technical, process-driven, data-driven lens. And when you look at the world through that lens versus how most salespeople look through the world, which is, hey, my conversation lens and my relationship lens, more of the soft skills, you create a very different view. So like, this is one thing that Mary Lou does is, you know, an ISBN number, like on a book that identifies all the books. She gives every email she sends an ISBN number, and then she monitors all those emails against the ways that they're being used, where they are on their prior journey, what is their purpose, what are they accomplishing, and then she can look at that and then optimize the email. The main thing that she's doing that's kind of breaking away from the predictable revenues is more of an evolution. The first round of predictable revenue was if you organize yourself like this, you win because this is a much better way to organize yourself. Then the second step was, hey, now let's put in tools that are specifically designed for this model, which would be the outreaches and the sales lofts and all those type of tools. So now we have a model being worked with model specific tools. The next evolution, which I think Mary Lou is on the cutting edge of is, Now we need to instrument the tools to the model and make sure that we are like really going at it. So, you know, it's funny, I'm working with a manufacturing company. You know how many metrics like an extrusion company does that like extrudes plastic things on its assembly, like on its manufacturing line? Literally like 10,000 data points. And then they have to bring that all together, optimize it and do all this kind of stuff to like get the maximum production with the least amount of waste. That's the fastest and the cheapest and all that kind of stuff. And you know how many things that we're measuring in sales? Like three or four maybe. And it may be regularly. But what's more complicated? Pushing out a plastic hose out of an extrusion machine or like getting humans to buy plastic hoses? I would argue that getting the humans to do stuff is always going to be harder if we're instrumented less. So, that's where I think predictable revenues, I don't think it's over. I think it's fine. It's just it now needs an evolution because running the system with the tooling, there's enough people doing it now that there's no competitive advantage there anymore. The next competitive advantage is, well, there's two, I think. One is this instrumentation that allows you to hyper focus in on what's going wrong and how to fix it. And the other one is, is that your machine that you build, your engine can be whatever, but if your fuel that you put in the engine, like the contact data isn't right, then guess what? Like the engine never is going to run that great.
Andy: Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I think when everyone says something is dead, predictable revenue is dead, is really what they mean is it's like the game's changed, right? And you're seeing all this predictable revenue is dead. You made a good point, which is like, it's not dead. It's just the playbook's changing.
Mark: And there's no competitive advantage. You could just read the book and do it and your performance would increase because there were so few people doing it. now so many people are doing it, you can't do that anymore. That doesn't mean it's dead. It just means you got to go further in your understanding of what you're doing versus just reading a book and hiring SDRs.
Andy: Yeah. Cause before it was like, man, you remember this? Like you just plug in SDRs and like, well, if I plug in four SDRs, they can do this many activities. We know we can get this many meetings. It was like, I remember looking at the spreadsheet we have for SDRs at Outreach and just being like, oh yeah. They looked at it and said, I need to hit these metrics. And I know I hit my number. Like it was pretty crazy.
Mark: I just talked to my daughter about that. Yeah. She's an SDR. Same thing. She's like, I would, she's like, dad, I knew it didn't matter if I had a bad day or two, as long as I just kept doing what I was supposed to do. But I think that those days are starting to go away.
Andy: Yeah. Cause it's like, well, figuring out what, what those activities are. And I had this crazy idea and, you know, obviously I'm a big proponent of like. You crazy idea? Yeah. I know all of it. always content like so I have this concept where instead of getting SDRs right is an idea I was thinking about for Distribute is getting in-house creators and let's call them CDRs, content development reps. And the only thing they focus on is posting content on LinkedIn that talks about problem, solution, problem, solution a couple of times a day. And then literally use LinkedIn DMs to be starting conversations with people that engage. And it's literally like half content creator, half SDR. And I was thinking if I was ever to go with this model, that is kind of what I would look for. And I don't know if anyone's ever tried this and done it yet. There's obviously some of these companies that have SDRs that naturally want to go and do content. And we see the sales influencers in there and all this stuff. And they're kind of doing that on their free time. But again, that's not the exact focus of these people. I think the people that have done best with it are like Dong has done good. I think maybe they have some metrics where they like… tell people, hey, you should post a couple of times a month or whatever. I don't know. That's the word on the street. I don't know how real that is, but somebody can testify. But what do you think about this?
Mark: Like, in terms of… You're dead on. So, listen, what I'm starting to push is… So, we just kind of went through the progression. SDR 1.0 is hire an SDR, give them Outlook and a calendar and LinkedIn and like, let them go crazy, right? SDR 2.0 is hire that same person but do outreach or sales loft or whatever on top of it. SDR 3.0, I think, is going to be a little different. What I mean by that is, I was watching a football game And it just hit me. I'm like, oh, there's an offensive, defensive and special teams coordinator. And their job is to nail that specific part of the game. It's a three phase game. Now that you're accountable for that part of the game, you don't need to know about the other two thirds of the phases. That's the head coach's job. And I was like, wait, there's kind of three main channels of outbound. There's social, there's email and there's phone. What if we created a social coordinator, a phone coordinator, an email coordinator? And rather than hiring 10 SDRs to do calls, emails, and social stuff, why don't we hire one person to do just email? And that's all they do. One person to just have do the social. One person to just make the phone calls. And all of a sudden, like with all these new tools that are out there, you can have one SDR, and I don't care what anybody says, you have one SDR blast people with like at the rate of maybe 30 SDRs. And if you have your messaging measurement stuff in place, you can get insane results doing that without doing this hyper-personalized stuff. I'm not saying that that's not a way to go. I'm just saying that's a hard way to go. But all they do is they just maniacally focus on the email channel. And then you do the same thing on the phone. You didn't have to train a whole team of SDRs doing phone calls. Just one person to do. You give them like Nooks or Aurum or something, they can do 2,000 dials a day. They can. That's their only job is to do dials. Just think how lethal that person would be on the phone. And then the social viewpoint, that's like the content. You do the post. You know, you have a, there's a strategy. It's not just, I'm gonna connect with you on LinkedIn and send you a crappy DM. That's not working, right? No, no. So, that's how I'm starting to see the world is like, let's special, let's, this isn't, This is more specialization, but actually leads to less human capital, which is a very inverse relationship normally. Like, you know, if you specialize more, you have to hire more humans. The purpose of this specialization is to hire less humans, but to make a human like an absolute rock star in a specific channel.
Andy: And that's interesting. So let's talk about a use case here. So say like SDR one posted on social. And then with the coordinator, you're thinking the coordinator. So there's four people, there's the coordinator. And then you're thinking there's the SDR one, social SDR two, calls, SDR three emails. So are you thinking SDR one posts on social, Coordinator goes all these people engaged.
Mark: We should give him a call now gives it to the dialer and then a dialer Oh, that's now we're talking see or let's say from revops I get my list of 100 accounts and 500 people to go after I put all of them in in and I'm the email guy We want to do email first. Well, i'm the email person I take them I put them in there Then part of my job is not to just deliver meetings to aes part of my job is to deliver to the phone call person All the calls you're going to make to follow up on the emails And now the phone call person makes those calls and then now that phone call person gives the social person or however you want to route it, all the people to do social stuff with. So, it's not just the end result of the meeting, it's the what can you pass over to the other channels in terms of information that helps those other channels get better with their specialist.
Andy: Yeah, dude, this is awesome. No, dude, this is what I've been thinking about because this is literally what I do. But again, I'm all over the place. It's hard for me to keep track of it all, right? Because I'm not special. I'm just all over the board. So, I'm looking at who's engaging. I have one of my VA's messaging those people that engage, you know. Basically, I have some VA's helping with me right now. Kind of do this, but no calls, no emails. And you know what's crazy, dude? is I booked in two months, I booked like, this is fully automated, dude. It's going to blow your mind. In two months, I booked like 137 meetings. with director plus sales leaders.
Mark: And was it mostly on LinkedIn?
Andy: So it was, this is where I went down. I used inbox rotators, you know, smart radiance for me. I bought like 50 domains. I did that. I have a two-step sequence. Emails, two emails. That's literally it. And I call it the one-two punch. First email, I have a great offer in there that they can't refuse. I don't want to tell everyone because I'm in there. I'm going to copy me that then it won't work, but maybe DM me if you're listening to this and I'll give you some 10 minutes. But, um, I do that. And then the second email, I got a little joke in there and it's literally, if they don't like that joke, then they're probably not ever going to buy any wins. Guess what? It's all great. Uh, because it's a joke that I think most people would like it. If it's a sales joke, sure. So no, whatever. And honestly, that second email on top of the offer I give in the first email is the magic, right? And they go, haha, I used, you know, I had someone that used to say that to me, blah, blah, blah. And the book, they either say that or they say, Hey, I've seen your content on raped in, so I would be happy to chat. Yup. 50% of my replies are that. And so that tells you there, and I know some people are like, oh, well, like, I mean, why would I post content? I'm in sales. And I'm like, content is sales, dude. What do you think it is? You think I'm just doing it to get likes? It's a marketing tool, man.
Mark: I could give a crap about the likes. It's what the likes and the comments do for me. There was a significant portion of our pipeline at Catalyst that was just because of my social stuff and Kevin, the other co-founder's social stuff. It was amazing what we were able to drive and pipeline from our social things. Everybody's like, I remember I read somebody the other day was like, you know, who's the real gangsters out there? It's all the CROs that don't post online because they're busy doing their job. And I was like, I feel you. Like I hear what you're saying, but you know what? Like I know I'm doing my job and I know how much posting is helping me do my job. And so like that you're just talking from somebody that like that person is probably talking from a place of I can't figure out how to Create the machine to make it work. And so i'm gonna diss people that have Yeah, well, listen, dude, you remember let's talk about me and you you contact me at outreach You're you start saying mark i'm gonna do more social stuff and i'm gonna do this. What was my reaction you remember? I remember.
Andy: I don't remember. I don't remember. What was it?
Mark: I was like, Meborne, pick up the freaking phone and send some emails. Like, what are you doing with all the posting stuff? Like, what are you going to do with people in other accounts? What are you going to do, like, that aren't in your territory? What are you going to do with this and this? And you're like, I'm going to figure it out. And guess what? You had one of the best years at Outreach that year. And it was mostly off of the social stuff. And not only that, you are this crazy citizen of the sales org that was just passing everybody else leads off of all your content. And that's when I was like, okay, Casa Glow's got it wrong. Old man, get off the lawn. Needs to like get back in the house.
Andy: Yeah, dude. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I do now remember that. Like, well, you're right. Everyone thought I was crazy. Yeah. And it's one of those, it's like that quote, like first they think you're crazy and then they're, And then they like, look at what you're doing. And then they ask you for help or whatever, which is like, I see that every day. Someone hits me up and we used to work with, and I know they used to make fun of me. I didn't do it with you. I make fun of people for certain things, but then you pull each other's leg out. So it keeps like. And now they ask me, hey, how do you do it? You know, how do you do it? And I'm like, in my head, I'm like, I remember when he used to kind of hate on me for doing this.
Mark: But I still, you know, and so… Because everybody was like, you know what Mubor is doing? Mubor is doing a side hustle. Mubor is doing too much time on LinkedIn and when is he actually doing his sales activities? And what nobody saw was like this network effect, this branding thing that you were doing that Now, when people say, hey, I've read your content, I'm happy to meet, you know what they're really saying is, Andy, I know you because I've read your stuff all the time and what you say interests me, therefore you interest me, so I'm okay giving you up my valuable time for you to interest me some more. And you know, when that equation breaks down is when they don't know you because they haven't read anything you've done and you're a stranger asking them for valuable time. Why would anybody do that? You know? And so, it's just a very different path. And I think you and I both have experienced the power of what happens when you build these huge networks accidentally, when you're just kind of like posting and doing your thing, you know, to help yourself out.
Andy: Yeah. And I mean, you've done some consulting stuff. You're about to do a big thing that, you know, it's kind of, we're not talking about yet as well. Stay tuned for that, everyone. But I think what you've done, I mean, for you, your success post-catalyst, post-outreach, the success you've had in your consulting stuff, Do you think it would have, I mean, this is probably an obvious answer, but like, do you think you would have had as much success if you weren't active on LinkedIn, right? Like no one would have knew who you are, what you've done coming at them for the first time. Maybe they would say like, oh, good accolades, you know, like help build outreach, da, da, da, da. But then you build more trust with that content that you're putting out there. Like, oh, Mark actually knows his shit. He didn't just get lucky.
Mark: That's the thing that happens is like people can think I got lucky at outreach and there's some ways I did.
Andy: People can think… We all got lucky. Yeah, right. Yeah, for sure.
Mark: Some people would be like, you got lucky at Catalyst. I'll tell you that's not the truth. That was a lot of hard work. And so was Outreach. But here's the thing is, okay, Mark went from $0 to $230 million at Outreach. Mark took Catalyst, almost doubled revenue while he was there. And here's the thing though, is that you can do those things, but people still can think that you're not legit. And what my posts do is they show that I'm legit. Like I'm actually an operator. I'm doing the things that I say I want to do. And like I'm not talking out my butt here and being a talking head. I'm actually just sharing what I'm doing with my job every day. And that legitimacy is huge. And once people understand that, then you know, a lot of other stuff comes.
Andy: Yeah yeah and it adds a credibility aspect right not just like oh he has the title but like he walks the walk and dude coming back to this you know what I think another play is another here's another crazy idea we talked about the coordinator, the SDR coordinator, right? Making sure all this stuff is, it reminds me of F1. Like the dude that's responsible for changing the tire on an F1 car, his only job is to get really fast at changing that fucking tire. And it's done in under two seconds, which is crazy. But going back to this is what I think someone should launch. Here's an idea is a service where everyone's trying to ghostwrite for execs and ghostwrite for CEOs or whatever. No, they should do it for all the sellers on the team. There should be someone that does that to help fuel that engine and say, Oh, you have three sellers. We're going to ghostwrite for every person on there talking about stuff using their LinkedIn profile. And we're going to actually use that in the modern games. That, I think, is where the money is. If I wasn't doing distributed, I'd fucking launch that just because that's kind of my world. But that is something Sunless should launch, is where they're taking it. Because what's the sticking point today? It's that people, the SDRs don't have the time, they're scared how they're going to be perceived, or the execs, right, how they're going to be perceived. It comes back to that fear of like imposter syndrome. But if you kind of have someone else doing it that knows the game, right, it kind of eliminates a little bit of that. Yeah. And so I think that, so personally, and like once we started Pirates of Evil, All the people that are in sales are probably going to have a ghostwriter. If they don't want to do it themselves, work on their profiles. Right? And like they're just posting because why wouldn't you? It's thousands of eyeballs for, you know, I don't want to say free at this point, for free on LinkedIn, but you know, having someone do it, obviously it's free, but yeah.
Mark: That's kind of like that social coordinator role we were talking about. Like maybe that's your job is to figure out like what is the social strategy for the entire sales team to benefit from this network effect that happens when you're posting and people are reading everything. I don't know, man. There's definitely some changes happening. you know, the only thing that I get worried about is like people, the ability to use AI to just spam the crap out of these content channels. And like, if you, if everybody starts doing something like that, how are you, like, are you, is your content going to find its way to the audience that matters or not? Because, you know, but still what, like, what did they say? Like 3% of users on LinkedIn actually post regularly or something like that. It's like minuscule.
Andy: Like 1% or something crazy like that. And it's always like going back to the AI thing. Sure, I use automation, I use all that. But you know what, when I write my email, the one-two punch, I say, what's something else that no one else would say in a gold email? Like, because I own my company, I don't have anyone that's like, well, am I going to get in trouble? And the joke I say is kind of like, it's kind of inappropriate to be honest with you. Um, and the second one, and some people say that's not professional, but guess what? For every hundred that are like, yes, let's take a meeting. There's one that's like, you should be more professional. And I'm like, well, that's, that's just go ahead. That's not going to work. I just, I don't even respond. Right. But I'm like, yeah, like you can keep trying that. Sure. But I'll tell you like, this is working. Um, and so it almost goes back to that. And so I also have some other cold email ideas we can talk about, but I think visuals within cold emails are going to get very popular. Right? Like we're going to move from this text world. Think of social content, right? I kind of like see it there where it's like versus just trying to do, um, think of ads as well. Like getting, it's, it's an attention game. So instead of just doing all text, how do you create personalized visuals? Right. And at scale, right? Like, how do you do that? Whether it's like graphics or educational material, infographics that are, that are going to work. And I, I kind of think there's going to be a trend to this. Um, I haven't tested it yet, but I think that's going to be one. Some people doubt on video. Sure. Okay. Like, you know, um, I don't know the code to that yet, but I think this guy visual aspect is going to come soon.
Mark: Well, what is it? 78% of people on the earth are visual learners. And so, when we go to text or whatever, we end up with not accessing the main way people process information, which is with their eyeballs. You know, like you're reading it as very different than seeing it in a visual.
Andy: Yeah, yeah. The gurus will tell us though, like, oh, images are going to get cotton spam filters and da-da-da-da-da, you know?
Mark: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, yeah, it's kind of wild.
Andy: So dude, um, well, we're at time here, but this has been great, Mark. Um, dude, been a pleasure having you on, um, couple of things you're working on now, obviously you have your fractional thing. So that, and then you also have, uh, are you still hosting on 30 minutes of presidents? Yup. No hosting that podcast. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup.
Mark: Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Okay, so just doing a bunch of fun stuff, you know and still still posting every day and having fun and trying to be positive and Lift up other people and be a resource. Don't be a drain and you know the stuff I do man Dude, you're actually you know
Andy: One of the best of that, right? Because like, you'll talk to people like you're at their same level. And I've always appreciated that about you where you're not Mr. CRO, I'm an exec, like I'm above you kind of person.
Mark: I don't view, I never view myself that way. That's why people always like, I remember I made a conscious decision like 10 years ago that I would never say people work for me. Like I would never be like, oh yeah, Andy used to work for me. I always say I worked with Andy and Andy works with me. I get to work with Andy. And I think that is a very deliberate thing that I do to remind myself that it's me and you, that when it's not just me, it's not just you, it's us together. And so when you do the for thing, oh yeah, Andy used to work for me. The conversation is very different than when I say, oh yeah, Andy and I used to work together. That's just very different.
Andy: Yeah. Yeah, it is, man. And you know, it's funny. I have something like that. I do too with, I don't, I don't like to say I did something. I say we, and when we were raising money for distribute, I would just program them in line to say we, and they're like, Oh, but you're a solo founder. So who's we, I had to get that question all the time. I'm like, Oh, that's just me. Yeah. But I got, I'm just programmed as saying we, cause it's never me. It's never, I, and most of the times it's never just, I did something like I did not, help outreach grow to 230 million, right? We helped outreach grow to 230 million, right? It was never an I thing. And so that's something, I think I heard this from like Russell, Richard Branson or something. He said something about this and I was like, you know what? I read a book like 10 years ago, same thing. where it was like, yeah, you always use weed. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to smart that I'm going to, I'm going to take that. Yeah. I'm going to take that. So, um, cool, man. Well, people know where to find you link Denmark main channel. Um, and dude, been a pleasure.
